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Missing Tot`s Mom Thinks Child Is Alive and Close to Home

Aired July 28, 2008 - 20:00:00   ET


DIANE DIMOND, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight in the case of little Caylee Marie Anthony. As we go to air, new and shocking jailhouse telephone tapes just released. Caylee`s mom just can`t seem to stay off the telephone, and we now learn that she`s told her family she believes her little girl is alive and close to home. This as police are reportedly pouring over a new videotape made of a prison visit between Caylee`s mother and her grandmother that might offer up clues to Caylee`s whereabouts.
Only now does Casey Anthony say she`s ready to talk about the disappearance of her daughter with authorities. She`s kept mum for the 11 days she`s been in jail, according her family, because she doesn`t trust the local police. They`ve said that she would rather talk to the FBI. Is time running out for this beautiful little girl, or is it already too late?

Also tonight, Caylee`s grandmother makes the media rounds, defending her daughter, claiming Casey is keeping quiet to protect her little girl and to protect the entire family. What`s that all about? But the bottom line, the only question that matters right now is, Where is this little girl?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. Casey Anthony`s attorney, Jose Baez, has just requested an emergency hearing, scheduled for tomorrow, hoping to prevent investigators and the jail from releasing any more surveillance tapes of Casey Anthony and her visitors.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her attorney has been claiming lately that she`s willing to talk to the FBI, and what we`re hearing about that is nothing is stopping her from doing that. That is her call and her call only. And so far, she hasn`t made a call to the FBI, telling them to come on over to the jail to talk.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey, you have to tell me if you know anything about Caylee.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If anything happens to Caylee, Casey, I`ll die! You understand? I`ll die if anything happens to that baby!

CASEY ANTHONY: Whoa. Oh, my God. Calling you guys -- a waste, huge waste. Honey, I love you. You know I would not let anything happen to my daughter. If I knew where she was, this wouldn`t be going on.


DIMOND: Good evening. I`m Diane Dimond, in tonight for Nancy Grace. Tonight, to the desperate search for a 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee Marie Anthony. As we go to air, new and shocking jailhouse tapes just released. We will have those tapes for you later in this broadcast.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just moments ago, breaking developments. Casey Anthony`s attorney, Jose Baez, hopes to prevent investigators from releasing any more surveillance tapes of Casey Anthony, Baez requesting a hearing tomorrow to stop the release of any new tapes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Little Caylee Anthony -- the 2-year-old girl has been missing since mid-June. Mom is jail on charges she lied to police about her daughter`s disappearance, didn`t report it until month later, yet she`s the one that doesn`t trust the cops. Apparently, she`s now willing to talk to the FBI.


CASEY ANTHONY: I know you`re on my side. I`m not trying to...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nobody`s saying anything bad about you. Your family is with you 100 percent.

CASEY ANTHONY: No, they`re not.


CASEY ANTHONY: That`s (DELETED) because I just watched the (DELETED) news and heard everything that my mom said. Nobody in my own family is on my side.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, they are. Nobody has said...

CASEY ANTHONY: They just want Caylee back. That`s all they`re worried about right now is getting Caylee back. And you know what? That`s all I care about right now.


DIMOND: Oh, thanks for joining us tonight. The continuation, it seems, of a national vigil for a tiny girl whose whereabouts are unknown. And it`s inconceivable to most of us that the adults in her life -- her mother, her grandparents, her uncle -- have not yet all officially sat down with police to tell them what they need to know to try to bring this child back to safety.

Tonight, so much to report to you. We have just heard about a surveillance videotape made of this young mother and her mother during a prison interview. There`s going to be a court hearing on that tomorrow. Also just released, some telephone calls that Casey Anthony made home to her parents in which she tells a little bit more about what she says may have happened to her daughter. We will bring those to you later in the broadcast.

Tonight, though, we want to try to bring this story all together, to put some perspective on what we are dealing with here. Who is this 22- year-old, unmarried mother who loses track of her child for 31 days? What`s with the grandmother, who seems to be speaking to every TV camera around, but not in an official conversation with the police? And where`s grandpa, who, by the way, used to be a police officer himself? If he has knowledge or some doubts about his daughter and what happened to his grandchild, if he has any doubts at all about all this, he should be sitting down and talking to authorities.

Let`s start at the very top of a very long list of questions we have with a local reporter from the Orlando, Florida area. Mark Williams is from WNB -- I`m sorry, WNDB Newsradio in Orlando. Hi, Mark. How are you? Let`s play 10 quick questions here, OK?


DIMOND: All right. First of all, before all this happened, where did this mother and her little girl live?

WILLIAMS: Apparently, they lived at the house with George and Cindy Anthony.

DIMOND: The grandparents.

WILLIAMS: Yes, the grandparents, and lived there for a long period of time.

DIMOND: OK. Now, where did she work?

WILLIAMS: She was unemployed. She had told people that she had worked at Universal Studios, but she had not worked there for two-and-a- half years. So she was literally unemployed.

DIMOND: OK, but she told people that she was going to work every day, and she had a, quote, "nanny" or a baby-sitter that she dropped the child off with every day. Where was she going, do we have any idea?

WILLIAMS: No idea whatsoever. And that`s what authorities want to know. There`s that 30-day lapse in there between the time the child disappeared to where we are today, and she cannot account for any of those days.

DIMOND: All right. I want to know more about what the community is saying about this -- this young mother. Let`s bring in Diana Bosch. She`s a reporter with another news radio station in Orlando, WDBO. So Diana, tell me what you have learned from the community. I understand you went to a vigil last night. What are people saying about Casey Anthony? What kind of person is she?

DIANA BOSCH, WDBO NEWSRADIO: Well, last night, there was a vigil held at the Anthony family home. It was at around 8:00 PM. And yes, it was raining, and there wasn`t more than 60 people that showed up. And there were tears. You know, there was a minister there that gave a good sermon and a good prayer about still having hope to find Caylee. The focus was mostly on Caylee. Nobody was talking about Casey or the situation that`s going on in the jail.

DIMOND: OK, now, Diana, let me interrupt you and ask you -- have you, in the course of your reporting -- and I want to ask Mark this, too. Have you learned anything personal about Casey Anthony, talked to high school friends or -- I mean, was she is a wild child? Does she have a police record? What do you know about her character?

BOSCH: Well, the only thing that we`ve learned is that she had been known to be some sort of a composite (SIC) liar. You know, she had -- she had said -- she had been known to say things and then, you know, twist her stories around. But other than that, that was the only thing that we really found out about her personality.

DIMOND: That`s it. Mark, you? Has your station learned anything particular about her character?

WILLIAMS: Well, just what Diana Bosch has just brought up about -- about Casey. But what from what we`ve been able to gather, she`s kind of been a quiet individual, living with the grandmother and the grandfather at their home in east Orange County, and that`s pretty much it.

DIMOND: You know, I`m not the only one with a long list of questions. We`ve already got callers phoning in. Dorothy is calling us from Ohio. Hi, Dorothy.


DIMOND: What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know, did they take a cadaver dog in to the area where her car was stranded or abandoned?

DIMOND: Yes, Dorothy. I can answer that question for you. Not only did they bring a cadaver dog, a sniffer dog, in to smell -- and they alerted on the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car, but they also brought one in - - you can see in the back yard right there, where the grandparents lived. And the dog also alerted there.

Pat Brown, let me go back to you now because I`m still fascinated by who this woman is, who, hello, loses her child for 31 days. Pat Brown, of course, the FBI criminal profiler. What kind of character are we dealing with here, Pat?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, from what I`ve seen, we have seen the pathological lying. We have seen a great deal of narcissism. Casey is about herself. Even on telephone, she`s more interested in whether anybody`s paying attention to her, whether her family is concerned about her, not that child. And we`re talking about the desperate search for Caylee, and yet I have seen no desperation from Casey whatsoever. She isn`t concerned, apparently, that her daughter might be crying, that her daughter might be suffering. And she seems to be more trusting of the kidnapper than she is of the police, so she`d rather keep quiet so the kidnapper can keep the child as long as possible.

DIMOND: Yes. See, this, Pat -- this is what I just don`t understand. The mother is saying, in effect, Oh, well, you know, she`s been mum because it`ll keep all of us safe. In other words, she is trusting the person who allegedly has her daughter?

BROWN: Right. Exactly. I mean, this is a ludicrous story, and it`s hard to trust any of this. And what I see is a person who is very self- serving, very narcissistic and possibly psychopathic. And for that reason, my concerns are that the child may not be alive today.

DIMOND: Yes, see, that`s what I`m worried about, too. Who better now to bring in than Robi Ludwig, a psychotherapist. Robi, what do you think is the type of character we`re dealing with? Because everything, everything centers around what that this mother knows at this point, doesn`t it?

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes. She`s grossly immature, and I would agree that she does seem to have some narcissistic tendencies. I would want to rule out if she`s a drug addict in any way.

DIMOND: Me, too.

LUDWIG: I mean, it just seems like her behavior is so bizarre and her judgment is so off, I wonder if she`s an addict. Did she sell the baby for money for drugs? There seems to be some type of secret going on that we don`t know, that`s making this whole story really not make any sense whatsoever.

DIMOND: You`re absolutely right. And you know what, Robi? When we hear what that secret is -- maybe, you know, she passed the child off for a payment for a drug debt, I mean, who knows. All of us have heard such bizarre things in the course of our careers. When we learn this secret, we`re all going to go, Oh, now we get it.

LUDWIG: Right.

DIMOND: Let`s go back to the telephone. Richard is calling in from South Carolina. Hi, Richard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How`re you doing, ma`am?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was wondering, who -- since they can`t come up with the $50,000 to get Casey out of jail, who`s going to be coming up with the reward for the $225,000?

DIMOND: Oh, that`s a good question. Diana Bosch, local reporter there in Orlando, you were at the vigil last night, and I know they were talking about that reward. How much is in that reward now?

BOSCH: You know, the recent number -- I don`t know it off of the top of my head, unfortunately, because...

DIMOND: It`s, like, $225,000, I think. But didn`t a corporation make that donation?

BOSCH: Yes. And you know, they`ve made that donation, and they`ve had these fliers and stuff, and unfortunately, the name just escapes me.

DIMOND: Well, you know what? I hate to quote the grandmother again because so much of what she says is so wacky and contradictory, but at one point she said, Well, you know, we can`t raise the money, and maybe we`d really rather have Casey in prison because she`d be safer there. OK.

Kim is on the line from West Virginia. Hi, Kim. Welcome to the program.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for having me on.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tonight, actually, is very interesting, the first time I`ve heard people bringing up such as whether or not she`s on drugs. My question is, could somebody have her held as ransom, being pulled -- her family could (INAUDIBLE) be killed if you open up your mouth, be in some type of drug cartel, or even a child -- you know, where they -- they send the children off and sell them. You know, there`s something else going on, and it does involve the family. I do think she has some narcissistic type of character...

DIMOND: I think that`s clear. But your question is what we`re all talking about here. What is the secret that`s going on here? And you know, Pat Brown, jump in on this because you have profiled some of the most outrageous criminals of our times, and sometimes you just can`t even fathom what the secret might be.

BROWN: Well, I think I can fathom quite well what the secret might be because Casey herself shows a lot of these -- her desires by wanting what she wants. In other words, she wants freedom. She wants to do what she would like to do. She`s more interested in her boyfriend than she is interested in her daughter, apparently.

My guess is that at some point, her life with her boyfriend, her freedom became more of this lifestyle she wanted than of being a mother and having to deal with this child on an everyday basis. So that`s why there is a great fear that perhaps freedom was more important than the child.

I don`t buy the drug theory at all. She didn`t -- during the time that little girl was missing, that 30 days, she did not exhibit any fear to anybody else. And if you think your child has been kidnapped by drug dealers...

DIMOND: I know.

BROWN: ... you`re under so much stress, you would exhibit that kind of -- you know, you would see that. But she was out having a good time. So my guess is she was having a good time because she finally got the life she wanted.

DIMOND: You know, our last caller, Kim, brought up something very interesting about the possibility of this drug connection.

However, let`s bring in Anjali Swenton. Anjali is an FBI forensic expert. Anjali, we can speculate until the cows come home, as they say, but the bottom line is there were sniffer dogs and they alerted on human remains.

ANJALI SWENTON, SCILAWFORENSICS LTD.: That`s correct, Diane. And unfortunately, as had already been said earlier, that circumstantial, at this point, evidence does point toward what nobody really wants to admit, which is more than likely that Caylee may no longer be alive. Those dogs are specifically trained to alert only to human remains.

Some of the excuses that Cindy and Casey talked about, rotting pizza, as explaining the way the smell -- and I think it`s pretty obvious cadaver dogs would not alert to food. They also are specifically trained in uniquely identifying scents of humans, as opposed to, say, a dead animal.

DIMOND: And that`s it, just human remains, is that right, Anjali?

SWENTON: That`s correct.

DIMOND: Yes. I want to talk to you later, coming up, about a theory that I have about those dogs. But right now, I want to go to one of those most outspoken and well-known victims` rights advocates that know. Gloria Allred is with us tonight. Hi, Gloria.


DIMOND: Who`s the victim here? Because when you hear all these phone conversations with Casey Anthony in prison, it`s her.

ALLRED: Well, I mean, I guess Casey feels that she is the victim. Clearly, the little girl, Caylee, is the victim. And her mother is less than forthcoming, to put it mildly. But it may -- but apparently, under Florida`s sunshine laws, those jailhouse conversations had to be released. My guess is law enforcement is not very happy about that. And obviously, her attorney`s not happy about that. But apparently, under the law, that`s why they were released.

DIMOND: Yes. Yes. I just -- I hear those phone calls from prison and I just want to strangle this mother. I`m sorry, I just do.

Let`s go out to the phones. And Ruth is calling from Wisconsin. Hi, Ruth.


DIMOND: What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering, if she wasn`t working where she said she was, does she have any proof of where she was working to get the money to pay this so-called nanny in the first place? Through her Social Security card, couldn`t they find out if she had any kind of a job?

DIMOND: Well, you know, that`s what I asked. I wish you could all be on the pre-show meeting here with the NANCY GRACE staff because we were talking about this very thing. If she`s not working, how`s she paying for things? How`s she paying for gas for the car and insurance and whatnot?

Mark Williams, I want you to jump in here because the local police are being very tight-lipped about this. I would have to think they have already checked her employment records. Do we know?

WILLIAMS: Right now, since she says she hasn`t worked in two-and-a- half years, they -- she allegedly stole her mother`s credit card. She went on a shopping binge. And I suspect that they have all the records from all those purchases that she made. That`s how she put the gas in the car, so on and so forth.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can`t tell me anybody that can find Caylee, nobody?

CASEY ANTHONY: No. Because every number that I`ve tried, every number that I`ve called is disconnected. Nothing. I can`t get ahold of anybody.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But that -- that girl was the last person to have her?

CASEY ANTHONY: She was the last person to have her. That was the last time I saw Caylee.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The cops are just sick and tired of her lies. She lies about everything. Nothing different is going to happen with the FBI because she`s going to continue down the same road with a woman that doesn`t exist, phone numbers that come back disconnected, addresses that people haven`t lived in months. She steals a car, leaves it in a part of town where she was supposed to be in another part of town. Everything is a lie.


DIMOND: Ouch. I`m Diane Dimond, in tonight for Nancy Grace. There`s breaking news in this case of Caylee Anthony and her disappearance. Two things. First of all, we have just learned that there are new telephone tapes that have been released with Casey Anthony talking to her brother, Lee. And in the telephone tapes that we hope to bring to you shortly, Casey Anthony tells her brother that she -- in her gut, she is sure that her little girl is not dead, that she is alive, that she`s very close to home and that everything is going to turn out OK.

The second piece of news we know -- there is a videotape taken of a prison visitation between the mother and the grandmother, and the police told us earlier today they may indeed release that. Well, now there`s going to be a hearing, an emergency hearing, on that tomorrow.

Let`s bring in Robin Sax. She`s our prosecutor on the panel tonight. Robin, you, as a prosecutor -- would you want a prison videotape to be released to the media, to the public?

ROBIN SAX, PROSECUTOR: Well, at this point, everything that goes out in the media just shows exactly the kind of person this mother is. And so having that out there, hopefully, will get people angered enough to maybe want to stop listening to what the family`s bringing about and start listening to looking for where this body is, unfortunately.

DIMOND: Yes, but Alex Sanchez, as a defense attorney, if your client is not guilty, then why not let it be released? He`s going to argue tomorrow, her attorney is, not to release it.

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know -- you know, I don`t see why the police would want to release this tape because what are they trying to do? They want her to look bad in the public`s eye? Is that what the police should be doing?

DIMOND: Whoopsie-daisy. Too late for that, I think.

SANCHEZ: Right. So what is the purpose at this point? What are we gaining? How is it going to help us arrive at the truth about what happened here?

DIMOND: Yes, I`m guessing it won`t be released.

Well, now to tonight`s "Case Alert," the search for a 7-year-old Massachusetts girl kidnapped from a Boston playground during a supervised custodial visit. Authorities say Reigh Rockefeller and her father, Clark Rockefeller, last seen in New York, possibly now on a yacht that set sail from Long Island. An arrest warrant issued now for Rockefeller, who was in the middle of a bitter divorce from the little girl`s mom. Police also are on the lookout for a black SUV with a Red Sox license plate. The 7-year- old has blond hair, blue eyes and was last seen wearing a pink and white sundress and red shoes. If you have any information, please call the Boston police, 617-343-4328.



CYNTHIA ANTHONY: I have a 3-year-old that`s been missing for a month.

911 OPERATOR: A 3-year-old?


911 OPERATOR: Have you reported that?

CYNTHIA ANTHONY: I`m trying to do that now, ma`am.

911 OPERATOR: OK. What did the person do that you need arrested?


911 OPERATOR: For what?

CYNTHIA ANTHONY: For stealing an auto and stealing money.


DIMOND: Oh, yes, and for losing my granddaughter. This family is so emotionless.

I`m Diane Dimond, sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace. This -- this case of Caylee Anthony has galvanized America. Everybody seems to be interested in it, Roberta in Michigan for one. Hi, Roberta.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you tonight?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is -- I`ve been following this case, and no one mentions the birth father`s family. Allegedly, he died a year ago, I understand. But how come nobody`s mentioning his parents or that side of the family?

DIMOND: Yes. Mark Williams, real quick, what do we know about the birth dad? Is he really dead?

WILLIAMS: As far as we know, he died in a car accident about a year ago. No mention about the birth father`s family whatsoever.



LEE ANTHONY, BROTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Do you think that Caylee is OK right now?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF MISSING 2-YEAR-OLD CAYLEE: My gut feeling? As Mom asked me yesterday and they asked me last night and the psychologist asked me this morning, and I`m not sure (INAUDIBLE), in my gut she`s still OK and it still feels like she`s close to home.


CASEY: So that is still my best feeling at the moment. Again if that changes, I mean, obviously, I`m going to reach out and say something immediately. But, I know Mom will understand this better than anyone that there is that type of bond that you have with your kid.

LEE: And it`s -- you know, it`s unexplainable, absolutely.


DIMOND: Well, all I can say about that brand-new telephone call that we`ve just are bringing to you now is I hope she`s right. I hope her gut is right that little Caylee Anthony is OK.

Hi, everybody. I`m Diane Dimond in tonight for Nancy Grace.

We have just gotten a portion -- we`ll bring you more later in this broadcast -- of telephone calls made over the weekend but just released by the Orlando Police Department of Casey Anthony speaking to her brother, Lee.

And as you see there, he says, what do you think about her -- what do you think her faith has been in effect? And Casey Anthony, who you see there from a court appearance earlier, said in my gut, I think she`s OK. I think she`s close to home.

I hope she`s right.

Let`s go out to the phones. Eileen is calling us from Massachusetts. Hi, Eileen.



EILEEN: I have a question regarding her sanity. Do you think that she might suffer from psychosis or Munchausen by proxy or something?

DIMOND: That`s a very good question and one I`m not qualified to talk about. You notice, Eileen, in that telephone conversation we just heard, she said she`d been talking to therapist, psychotherapist I think that she said.

So let`s ring in Robi Ludwig who is our own psychotherapist.

Robi, what do you think? First of all what do you think about the caller`s question? And then I have a follow-up.

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST, AUTHOR OF "TILL DEATH DO US PART": Well, I certainly don`t think she`s psychotic or qualifies for Munchausen by proxy. She does seem to -- you know I wonder if when she is having these phone calls and phone conversations right now, she knows that she`s being listened to. So she`s thinking of it as a way to basically secure her innocence.

And also, you know, I think it`s wishful thinking at most that she`s saying that she thinks her daughter is well. That`s what`s bizarre. Any mother who has not seen her child would automatically go to the worst-case scenario.

Oh my god, what`s wrong her?

DIMOND: Right.

LUDWIG: Instead she seems angry and defensive and that`s what`s so bizarre about this case.

DIMOND: Yes, I listen to some of the phone calls that she made home last week, and you know, well, everybody`s just worrying about Caylee. Yes. That`s right.


DIMOND: You know?

LUDWIG: And shouldn`t you be, too? You know.

DIMOND: Hello?

LUDWIG: Duh? But not all mothers have internal instincts and I think that`s what`s interesting here. Here`s a case where the mother`s maternal instinct is clearly off if she has any at all.

DIMOND: Right. Now, Robi, I want to ask you, too, about the psych evaluation. We have learned that on Wednesday of this week, in just a couple of days, the court is going to receive the evaluation from the psychotherapist, psychologist, whoever is looking at her.

What does that entail? What`s that about?

LUDWIG: Well, they`ll test her. They probably are going to look for mood disorders or a character pathology, so if she is character or logically impaired that would mean something in terms of this case.

If she turns out to have anti-social personality or sociopathy, then here`s a person who has no conscious, who, for example, could eliminate her daughter and still act as if nothing is wrong.

DIMOND: Yes, you know, I`m sorry but I just keep thinking of Susan Smith.

LUDWIG: Right.

DIMOND: . who put her boys in the back of a car, you know, strapped them into their little car seats.

LUDWIG: Right.

DIMOND: . and drove them into a lake.

Let`s go out to the phones again. Payton is calling us from Virginia. Hi, Payton.

PAYTON, VIRGINIA RESIDENT: I`m good. How are you?

DIMOND: I`m good. How are you?

PAYTON: Good. My question is I haven`t heard too much at all about where Casey has been for this month that she went on this mini-vacation to bond with Caylee? Where was she? I mean I would think that that would be a big clue as to where Caylee is.

DIMOND: Right. Now Diana Bosch is a local reporter there in Orlando, WBDO talk radio.

Diana, what do we know about that? And I understand her mother -- the grandmother was talking about this on one of the early morning news shows.

DIANA BOSCH, REPORTER, WBDO NEWSRADIO: Yes, and at the bond hearing that they had last week, Cindy Anthony, as she testified, and in her testimony she said that Caylee had -- or Casey had taken Caylee to Jacksonville, and you know, that she just went on a mini-vacation and when she had talked to her, she said that she was fine and everything was OK, and she just didn`t even question it.

So I mean it`s just kind of interesting, like your 22-year-old daughter just leaves for a mini-vacation and.

DIMOND: Yes, I thought that she had that job that she had to go to. Oh, opsy, daisy she didn`t really have the job. Oh yes.

Say, Mark Williams, what can you tell us about the few days and weeks right before -- or say these 31 days that this little girl was missing. Do we know exactly what Casey was doing? Is this when she was with the boyfriend barbecuing around the pool with all of her friends?

MARK WILLIAMS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WNDB NEWSTALK 1150: Yes, that apparently happened, Diane, during the first part of June. And looking at some information that we received just a short time ago, Casey has told her brother, Lee Anthony, during that jailhouse visit this morning that took place is that she says, all the days ran together.

So she can`t give any specific time, she can`t give any specific dates, or say where she was specifically on what specific day. So it`s a jumbled mess, according to her.

DIMOND: Now the other thing that I find very interesting in the latest conversation that has come out and, again, we`re getting you more of that conversation. I want to talk to Pat Brown about this because it`s a criminal profile question, I think.

Her brother, seems to me, in this conversation to be trying to get out of his sister more information about this nanny, and he says, well, did you ever talk to her on the cell phone? Do you think -- did she ever call you on the cell phone? Oh, yes, she said. And she texted me as well. And I`m sure the number is there.

If she`s lying about the existence of this babysitter/nanny, didn`t she just get herself in the corner there?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "KILLING FOR SPORT": Well, I think she`s been in that corner for a long time, Diane.

DIMOND: You`ve got a point.

BROWN: She`s picked out a name of somebody who apparently doesn`t exist, picked an apartment, apparently, nobody lived at, and I heard earlier on that theoretically this babysitter was a friend of a friend who was watching somebody else`s child, and then would watch their child.

Well, how come not one friend knows this woman? None of the neighbors. Nobody has seen this woman, nobody has seen Caylee with this woman, nobody has seen Caylee.

So the fact that she cannot even come up with the smallest connection to this woman in any way, shape or form which is why, of course, the police are terribly suspicious.

DIMOND: You know, Gloria Allred, you and I have covered a lot of sad stories together. And I know you as a defense attorney. So I`m asking you with your defense attorney hat on for this.

This is a woman who is in so much trouble yet she is still so arrogant when you hear her on the telephone.

As a defense attorney, don`t you sit these people down and say to them, now you`re in prison and everything`s going to be recorded, you better be careful.

GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIM`S RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, actually I am a victim`s rights attorney but yes, I think a defense attorney would sit them down, would explain that each and every word they speak about this circumstance surrounding her missing daughter to anyone might come back to haunt her. And so her -- she would be well advised not to be saying anything to anyone because she is facing some serious felony charges.

On the other hand, you know if she just -- if she has nothing to do with the disappearance of her daughter, she`s totally innocent, then she needs to be forthcoming about all of the facts about where her daughter is.

By the way, law enforcement officers, I`m sure, is also checking out her cell phone...

DIMOND: Oh you bet.

ALLRED: . to find out who she was talking to, talking to the people that she was talking to to find out everything about her. And exactly how she was supporting herself, where she was spending her money, and where she was during this time. They`re not going to just depend on what she tells them.

DIMOND: And I`m sure they`ve already checked those phone records.

Alex Sanchez, the defense attorney on the panel tonight, what -- how does she ever defend herself after heaping so much suspicion on her own head?

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, she`s going to have to rely on the advice of her attorney. But, you know, I`m not so certain we should so easily dismiss the possibility that maybe she`s being blackmailed by somebody, or maybe she got involved in some doc criminal activity whether it`s drugs.

DIMOND: But you don`t put your child up to get out of a jam.

SANCHEZ: No, it could be just raw fear at this point, Diane. You know these people are cut throats and they may have sent a message, you say one word to the police about your daughter, and your daughter`s dead. Don`t rule this out. You`re dealing with some very dark people out there.

DIMOND: Don`t forget the sniffer dogs, though.


L. ANTHONY: Do you think that Caylee is OK right now?

C. ANTHONY: My gut feeling? As Mom asked me yesterday and they asked me last night and the psychologist asked me this morning, and I`m not sure (INAUDIBLE), in my gut she`s still OK and it still feels like she`s close to home.


C. ANTHONY: So that is still my best feeling at the moment. Again if that changes, I mean, obviously, I`m going to reach out and say something immediately. But, I know Mom will understand this better than anyone that there is that type of bond that you have with your kid.

L. ANTHONY: Right.

C. ANTHONY: And it`s, you know, it`s unexplainable, absolutely.





L. ANTHONY: Did you speak with Caylee over the phone at any time?

C. ANTHONY: I did one time, yes. And that was actually the day that Mom had called the police.

L. ANTHONY: Do you remember what time you spoke to her?

C. ANTHONY: Around noon? It was through a private call.


DIMOND: Through a private call? Hmm. Brand new -- brand new telephone conversation between Casey Anthony and her brother Lee just released by the Orlando Police Department and a conversation that took place sometime over the weekend.

I`m Diane Dimond in tonight for Nancy Grace.

Casey Anthony -- we should be very careful to say --has been charged with the following -- neglect of a child, false official statements, obstruction of a criminal investigation. Maximum penalty, six years in jail. No kidnapping charges. No homicide charges.

We need to be careful about this. Maybe, just maybe there is a real baby-sitter out there, and maybe, just maybe, this child is fine.

Mark Williams, what do you think the likelihood of that is? You`re the local reporter there.

WILLIAMS: Boy oh boy, you know, this -- this case has had so many twists and turns, Diane, it makes my head spin.

DIMOND: Mine, too.

WILLIAMS: But you know last week I saw the preliminary hearing for the bond hearing. And one of the Orange County detectives got on the stand. He said, listen, I used to be a homicide investigator before I took this job. And I know a -- decomposing body smells like. And, you know, then the cadaver dog hit on it.

Also one other thing, Diane, real quick, you know, in this conversation with her brother, Lee Anthony asks Casey, would your cell phone -- would the cell phone number of the babysitter be on your phone?

DIMOND: Right, we`ve just talked about that.

WILLIAMS: And she said, I don`t know where my phone is. She said the last time I saw it, it was at my boyfriend`s house. Well, the police department and investigators have gone over to Tony Lazarro`s apartment with a fine tooth comb. They have not come up with any sort of a cell phone yet.

So this just throws another log on the fire.

DIMOND: Yes, Robin Sax, you`re the prosecutor on the panel here. How do you decide what to do with this woman? I mean there`s already some substantial charges there. But the goal should be to get this little girl back. And how do you sort it all out?

ROBIN SAX, PROSECUTOR, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING PARENTS NEED TO KNOW": Well, of course, the goal is to get the child back.

DIMOND: Right.

SAX: And luckily there is enough here right now that to keep her in custody. Not always are we so lucky to be able to keep the defendant in custody or the suspect -- primary suspect in custody while we`re conducting the investigation.

And here I just look at this case and I, you know, put a stack of all the pieces on one side that`s temping to show that she`s guilty of kidnap and part of something, obviously, a lot worse and perhaps a murder. And look at what the other possibilities are and I just can`t help to think of the old DA expression that we use in closing arguments all the time, which is, you know, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it`s a duck.

DIMOND: Yes, and what do you think the duck is, homicide?

SAX: I hate to say those words and we`re so careful around those words, but when you look at all the evidence -- the smell, the decomposing body, the mom calling in on the 911 call, the tapes, the lies, the conversation -- I mean you don`t get that much evidence in post-murder cases.

DIMOND: You know I`ve been attempting tonight to try to bring all of the pertinent pieces together and really put this in perspective for people and when they talk about the theories about where this child might be, the bottom line, to me, Angelie Swanton(ph), our forensic expert, is there were sniffer dogs that are rested, not only in the grandparents` backyard, but in the trunk of this woman`s car.

What do you make of that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I would like to point out, Diane, one thing that I don`t think has been mentioned, certainly there`s suggestion - - and I said this before -- that Caylee may no longer be alive because cadaver dog would not have alerted. But that doesn`t necessarily mean that she was murdered.

DIMOND: And it doesn`t necessarily mean the remains were Caylee`s?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s correct, too, and I think we`re still waiting on some laboratory tests to tell us whether, you know -- whether the stains and the hairs that were found in the trunk were, in fact, human and then whether they can uniquely identify them and match them to a particular individual.

DIMOND: And there was soil in the back of the trunk, which makes me think, maybe something was buried in the backyard and then unburied and put in the trunk?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Certainly. When you put those pieces together, the fact that the dogs alerted both in the backyard and the trunk and no body has been found, I don`t think it`s too far elite to think that a body had been buried and perhaps transported in the car.

DIMOND: Yes, and again, we`re not saying it`s Caylee. We don`t know if it`s Caylee. But it`s that whole looks-like-a-duck routine.

Sherri is calling in from Ohio with a question. Hi, Sherri.



SHERRI: Good evening. One the questions -- well, the question I have is, we`ve seen many, many pictures of Caylee, just tons of them. And.

DIMOND: Right.

SHERRI: . with Casey being such a young mother and my -- the mother of my two grandchildren have taken pictures of everything and every one they`ve ever been involved with. If you have this nanny who`s been involved in this children -- this child`s life, rather, for a year or a year and a half, wouldn`t you have some kind of photograph, some kind of photographic evidence?

DIMOND: Yes, good -- very good question, Sherri. We have gotten many of the pictures that you see of this little girl off of a -- an Internet site that her mother put up.

And no, Diana Bosch, a local reporter there in Orlando, I haven`t seen any pictures of the nanny. That`s a very good point.

BOSCH: You know we`ve actually -- Cindy said she told reporters today she has actually never met Zenaida. You know, she said Casey would often take Caylee to the babysitter and it was something that she did it on her own, and no one really she had heard Zenaida`s name several times, but, again, it was something that Cindy maintains that Casey would take Caylee to Zenaida on her own.

And she just figured that she was safe there.

DIMOND: Yes, Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzales, and the NANCY GRACE staff has searched high and low and nationwide, they can`t find a Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzales anywhere that matches the age range that Casey said.


L. ANTHONY: Did you ever call a babysitter on your -- on your cell phone? Ever receive a call from the babysitter on your cell phone number?

C. ANTHONY: I most definitely did.

L. ANTHONY: Can you give me any day or anything that you think you may have received that?

C. ANTHONY: On a specific day? God, a lot of the times it was through text messages so the number would show up even on that.


C. ANTHONY: I can`t think of any specifics. I mean my days are all thrown together. I at least know what the day is today but as far as from the last couple of months, I have no exact time or date.




L. ANTHONY: Did you speak with Caylee over the phone at any time?

C. ANTHONY: I did one time, yes. And that was actually the day that Mom had called the police.

L. ANTHONY: Do you remember what time you spoke to her?

C. ANTHONY: Around noon? It was through a private call.


DIMOND: Then why does she say she hasn`t seen her child in 31 days? I just don`t get it. The story just -- it`s like you`re standing on shifting sands.

Everybody has questions about this, including Tia from Indiana.

Hi, Tia, thanks for calling in tonight.

TIA, INDIANA RESIDENT: Thank you, Diane, for taking my call.

DIMOND: Thank you.

TIA: My question is the grandfather is a former police officer.


TIA: We have barely heard two words out of this man. He has had no input whatsoever in this case.

DIMOND: Well, you know, I am told by the staff here at the NANCY GRACE show, that the grandparents, the grandfather and the grandmother, have sat down and talked to police, but they don`t know anything. They just know that their daughter lived there and then she moved away to bond with the child.

But let`s bring in one of the local reporters, Mark Williams is news director there in Orlando.

What about grandpa? He`s been involved in some of the vigils?

WILLIAMS: He`s been involved with every one of the vigils. As a matter of fact, he is spending his days handing out fliers and t-shirts at a local supermarket parking lot. And, you know, the guy is caught -- he`s like a deer caught in the headlights. OK? He really doesn`t know -- I don`t think he can comprehend what`s going on.

DIMOND: Yes, and it`s also interesting that two of Casey`s former boyfriends were also former cops.

Tonight, let`s stop now to remember Army Sergeant Phillip Anderson, just 28 years old, Everett, Washington, killed, Iraq, on a second tour of duty. He was awarded the Purple Heart on his first tour after rescuing a fellow soldier. He was also awarded the Army Commendation Medal, Army Achievement medal, and National Defense Service medal.

Anderson loved animals, fast cars and motorcycles. He leaves behind parents, Ken and Raven, sister, Beth, widow Melanie, and son Earner.

Philip Anderson, an American hero.

Thank you to all our guests and to all of you at home for being with us. See you tomorrow right here, 8:00 sharp, when Nancy Grace comes back. Until then, have a great evening.


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