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Interview With Texas Congressman Ron Paul; Arizona's Immigration Firestorm Continues
Aired July 29, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: You are about to hear and see a very heated, heated discussion with J.D. Hayworth right here, as well as a conversation with Ron Paul, who makes some surprising comments you may not have expected from him. All that coming your way. Here now, RICK'S LIST.
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Here's what's making the list tonight.
Busloads of protesters, arriving in Arizona.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not just about Arizona and it's not just about Mexican-Americans. This is about Hondurans. This is about Argentines. This is about Puerto Ricans.
SANCHEZ: If they won, why are these activists still protesting?
Is Afghanistan worth fighting when for the cost of keeping one soldier there for a year, we could build and run 20 schools? Think about that.
REP. RON PAUL (R), TEXAS: I would accept a transition period where you actually have some social help, because I believe that that would be more helpful than violence and bombs.
SANCHEZ: Congressman Ron Paul joins me live.
Charlie Rangel gets his list of charges, and it's ugly.
REP. CHARLES RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: I survived a Chinese attack in North Korea -- having survived that, that I haven't had a bad day since. Today, I have to reassess that statement.
SANCHEZ: Will he fight on or quit? And can you guess what list he is on tonight?
And this pastor wants another religion's most sacred book burned. I'm going to talk to this preacher. He makes the LIST.
SANCHEZ: Hey, everybody. I am Rick Sanchez. This is RICK'S LIST. So glad you are a part of the national conversation tonight. I don't want to give you the broad view of what has been going on in Arizona. I want to go in tight. I want you to see what some of these protests are really like. Here's the first one.
Roll it, Rog. This has been going on all day long. That's just a sampling there of the unrest we are seeing on the very day the law was supposed to take effect, the law that didn't take effect, because, well, essentially a judge decided she wasn't going to let it take effect.
Now watch this video. Watch this video we have right here. These are protesters. They're standing, some of them, locked arms. Apparently, they're trying to stand their ground. They're all but defying police to try and arrest them, defiant, but, look, generally peaceful. Here, let's listen in to a little bit of this. Make no mistake about it. This is a day of significant developments on this immigration battle.
Let me take you through a list of them. And then I am going to bring you back to this video, because I am not done showing you the yet. All right, here's the developments for today. Let me list them for you.
Arizona Governor Jan Brewer filed an appeal of yesterday's ruling and asked for a hearing to happen quickly, expedited, as she says. Number two, 11 buses rumbling from Los Angeles to Phoenix loaded with people ready to demonstrate and protest the law in the streets of the state capital arrived there today, and more may be coming.
Number three, Maricopa Sheriff Joe Arpaio, as if on cue, almost, thumbed his nose at the feds again today by launching another crime sweep targeting illegal immigrants. By the way, this is his 17th. But today, Arpaio had some company. Here, I want you to watch this. Take a look at this. You hear what they're saying? These protesters are right outside the police department, right outside the Phoenix jail. They're chanting, "Arrest Arpaio, not the people. Arrest Arpaio, not the people."
That was the chant that went on for hours. Some real civil disobedience and some real proof neither side is backing down on this thing, as Arizona remains the center of gravity in this fiery debate.
Let's bring in Jessica Yellin. She's been down in Phoenix all week long covering this story for us.
Was this a one-day thing, where people all got together because they knew the decision would be taking place today one way or another? Or is this something you expect to continue for quite some time there in Arizona, Jessica?
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: There will be some other protests going on for quite some time here, Rick, but also across the country.
The people I interviewed here came from states as far away as New York, New Hampshire, many people from throughout the West Coast, because the message they want to send is not only to Arizona, but to other states, saying there will be protests and resistance if similar laws are passed elsewhere.
I did ask why are they bothering to protest if injunction -- because the injunction took the meat out of the most controversial pieces of this measure. Here's what just one protester said to me, if we could play that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZAKIYA KHABIR, PROTESTER: We want to make sure that the governor, the president, and anybody else involved in this case, especially Sheriff Arpaio know that we won't rest until we know that this law is completely off the books, and then we have some real path to legalization for people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YELLIN: And, Rick, the protests continue tonight. They're happening across the street from me. And let me emphasize to you that this is the worst possible weather. It is hot, it is humid, and people have been out since 4:00 a.m. making their voices heard. There is a lot of emotion here, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Yes, I noticed that there were some more protests taking place just tonight.
Before I let you go, I want to ask you about something. Yesterday on this show, we talked about some things that are really important, like the possibility that even though this thing is now out of Arizona, and Arizona is telling the federal government, look, you have got to get something done on this, we need some kind of comprehensive immigration reform, it is going to be difficult to do that because if it is as it happened in the past, some will say no, it's amnesty. And then it can't be done. So, the whole thing ends up back to square one. Nothing happens.
So, last night, I'm talking to representative Darrell Issa, and I say, look, would you be willing to come up with some kind of deal that meets the president halfway in giving the people that are still here in the United States, some of them, under some criteria, some pathway to citizenship.
Here, this is -- I understand what -- do we have the question? All right.
This is Ed Henry. He took that information. He asks the question at the White House briefing of Robert Gibbs. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DARRELL ISSA (R), CALIFORNIA: Use Arizona as a wakeup call that we have got to fix the problem. And if President Obama will come part of the way, I guarantee you people like myself come the rest of the way. ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: It's not unthinkable that progress can be made on this issue because it has been made on this issue in the past.
I haven not seen what Congressman Issa supported in the past. I would suggest, Ed, we can't -- we cannot deal with immigration reform comprehensively without dealing with those that are here. I don't know what his plans are for that. I know the president has outlined comprehensively, and again Republicans in the past have worked on that.
I think if we all work together and work together honestly, I think progress can be made.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right, so, but I want to get your take on this, Jessica, because we may have taken a little bit of long time to get to that. But here is the issue. Here is the White House being handed what sounds like an olive branch from a Republican who has got to have a lot of guts to take on his party and say he is willing to agree to some kind of plan that allows people to have what some would call amnesty, and here's the White House react, to it. Did they embrace it enough, do you believe?
YELLIN: Well, if there were, it would be what most Americans want. Poll after poll shows that Americans want Washington to act.
But the sad truth is, Rick, it is more political talk. Darrell Issa, Representative Issa, has in the past said he wants a guest- worker program, but a limited one, and he wants to beef up border security. The White House has in the past said that they want to work with Republicans and meet them partway.
The problem is, is, in a political election year right now, with this issue as the hot as it is, there is no real hope that this will get done, certainly this year. And it's really a lack of political backbone on the part of everybody in Washington right now.
SANCHEZ: Yes, yes.
YELLIN: This is something voters want. The elected officials aren't doing it. It's just too politically sticky for them, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Yes. So Washington is saying to the American people, to hell with what you want. Really, it's what is of more concern to us is, you know, our political hides, our positions, and not losing voters. So, we're just going to keep status quo as it is.
And that's very, very frustrating. And I guarantee you that Americans watching us right now are thinking the same thing. It has got to be difficult.
All right, hey, listen, thanks so much, Jessica. We will be getting back to you. Let us know how those protests go throughout the course of the day. Now, watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Do you know of any benefits that have been provided to Americans by illegal immigrants? Any?
J.D. HAYWORTH (R), ARIZONA SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: A steady stream of cheap labor for the right and in some cases cheap votes for the left.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Do illegal immigrants provide any benefits to Americans? J.D. Hayworth is using it to get elected, immigration, that is. What does he know about it? I'm going to ask him, just as I ask another Arizona lawmaker. Rick Murphy is ready to roll. He's going to be joining us next here.
And then another debate that's going on all over the country, the question it seems that no one wants to ask, is the war in Afghanistan a waste of money? Important question. Ron Paul says, it's Washington's little secret. What does he mean by that? I'm going to take you through it.
This is your LIST. We will be right back.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Rick. This is Ashley (ph). I'm from North Carolina.
I agree with the immigration reform because I don't think it is right for two illegal Mexicans to come over here, and have a baby, and the baby being a legal American, for the sole purpose to have -- to be able to be here, because two wrongs don't make a right.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: As we look at these pictures that have been coming in today from Arizona, my next guest is Arizona State Representative Rick Murphy.
Mr. Murphy, thanks so much for joining us.
RICK MURPHY (R), ARIZONA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: My pleasure, Rick.
SANCHEZ: It seems this thing has gotten so heated, by the way. And I just want to start right from jump street, as they say. What is your beef with illegal immigration?
MURPHY: Well, Rick, the problem with illegal immigration is that it it's -- it is multifold. First of all, you have got some folks that are here that collect benefits and that put a burden on the taxpayers, and there is not enough balance to the benefit they're providing...
SANCHEZ: OK. Just a quick -- just a quick stoppage there. Just a quick stop. You know those people are paying taxes, right?
MURPHY: Some of them do pay some taxes, sure.
SANCHEZ: No, they all pay taxes.
SANCHEZ: No, no, Mr. Murphy, they all pay taxes, sir. Stop and think for a moment. Are you an elected official?
MURPHY: Yes, I am, Rick.
SANCHEZ: So you think that people who come to this country all steal?
MURPHY: I'm sorry. I didn't quite catch that.
SANCHEZ: Do they all steal?
MURPHY: Well, no, they don't all steal. But let me give you an example, OK?
SANCHEZ: Just answer the question. Do they all steal? Do they all live in caves?
MURPHY: I don't think very many of them live in caves, no.
SANCHEZ: OK. So, if they go to grocery store to buy goods, they pay taxes. It's called the sales tax, right?
MURPHY: Well, most cities don't here tax groceries. But, besides that...
SANCHEZ: OK. Let's suppose.
SANCHEZ: Since you are going to be real smart...
MURPHY: My wife and I are foster parents, OK?
SANCHEZ: No, let's continue the conversation. I don't want your talking points.
MURPHY: All right.
SANCHEZ: When a person comes to the United States, if they live here and they don't steal and live under the cave, are they paying property taxes and sales taxes?
MURPHY: If they buy a home, they're paying property taxes, sure.
SANCHEZ: What if they rent a home and the person who rents it, who collects their rent charges them that property tax?
MURPHY: Well, with our real estate market, there is not a real clear issue there.
SANCHEZ: Can you live in property in the United States, sir, without paying a property tax?
MURPHY: Not very easily.
SANCHEZ: Thank you.
Can you buy something at a store without paying a sales tax?
MURPHY: Not in most states.
SANCHEZ: So, why do you go around telling Americans that these people don't pay taxes, or some of them, as you say, when that...
MURPHY: I didn't say they don't pay taxes.
SANCHEZ: You just said that a minute ago. You said some of them do.
MURPHY: I said the costs they incur -- I said the costs they incur do not balance out the costs, the taxes that they pay.
SANCHEZ: So, they pay -- so, OK, so let's just leave it at that. So, even illegal immigrants pay taxes right?
MURPHY: They do pay some.
SANCHEZ: Thank you.
Let's move on to another point. Do you think that the benefits that they give -- do you know any benefits that they give Americans?
MURPHY: That the illegal immigrants give Americans?
SANCHEZ: Yes. Yes. Like what?
MURPHY: Well, some companies and some people benefit from the cheap labor. But, on the other hand, you have fewer available jobs for Americans. And it drives down wages for Americans that do the same jobs. So, I'm not real sure that it's clear that there's a benefit there.
SANCHEZ: No, you are right. You are right. And it's very well stated.
But let me ask you this. How about Social Security? Do you know that illegal immigrants subsidize you and your Social Security to the tune of $7 billion, so that some day you can retire on money they put into the system that they can never collect? Study, "New York Times."
MURPHY: Well, Rick...
SANCHEZ: You should know that if you're going to argue this stuff.
MURPHY: I would say that $7 billion is a drop in the bucket. For Social Security, that's a drop in the bucket.
SANCHEZ: Seven billion dollars is a drop in the bucket?
MURPHY: Compared to the total amount of the obligation? Compared to the total amount of the obligation, yes, it is.
SANCHEZ: Well, so did you know that?
MURPHY: Yes, I know that they do pay in. But they also do that mostly on the backs of people whose identities they have stolen. And it creates a huge burden and cost and inconvenience and disruption to those people's lives.
SANCHEZ: Actually, once again, you are wrong. Did you know that most illegal aliens are given something by the federal government called a tax I.D. that allows the government off to collect Social Security taxes from them? Did you know that?
MURPHY: Rick, I realize that some of them have that. But I also realize that many of them have stolen identification. It happens in this state all the time. As a matter of fact, we probably lead the nation in it. SANCHEZ: But here's the point. And, look, I don't mean to get into an argument with you. But it's almost like when we have these conversations, we only hear one side. And the bottom line is this, isn't it? Tell me if I'm wrong.
Illegal immigrants in the United States have been all but recruited by businesses in the United States. They have said, here, come here. I want you to come to the United States. I have got a job for you.
And then when they get here, our U.S. government with our broken immigration system gives them the wherewithal or the tax I.D.s and all the other papers so that they can work legally, even though they're not here legally. And now we hear folks like you saying, it's all the illegal's fault.
I guess I'm just trying to put this in perspective. Is it really?
MURPHY: Well, you kind of put words in my mouth. I don't think I ever said it is all the illegal's fault.
Now, nobody put a gun to their head and made them come here. But I would grant you that administrations from both sides of the aisle have done pretty much what you said and turned a blind eye.
SANCHEZ: Yes, you're right.
MURPHY: And I don't appreciate it from either side.
The fact of the matter is, Arizona is paying a disproportionate price for this problem because we're right on the border. And California and Texas have their borders sealed much better than Arizona does. They have been intentionally funneled here, because they assumed that it would be too inhospitable and people would stop crossing, but that didn't happen.
We need to have our border secured and we need to have that done first before we do anything, because people frankly don't trust the federal government to do what they say they're going to do. They need to prove themselves.
SANCHEZ: You are 100 percent right. And I think most Americans watching this newscast would say, you are absolutely right. The federal government has to come up with some kind of system to control the borders and a system for comprehensive immigration reform.
Unfortunately, most of the time, the anger that comes from one side or the other doesn't allow that to happen. And maybe that's why guys like you and I need to have these conversations more often.
My thanks to you, Mr. Murphy, for taking time to join us. I enjoyed the respectable discourse.
MURPHY: My pleasure, Rick. Thanks for having me.
SANCHEZ: All right. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL: I don't think you can change a whole culture through violence and through war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Yes, that's Ron Paul. We're going to tell you what he has to say. He -- he actually says some things that you may not have expected. What does he think will work in Afghanistan? A special message tonight from Ron Paul. We will be right back.
SANCHEZ: Welcome back to the LIST.
Something very unusual is happening when it comes to our nation's commitment to the war in Afghanistan. This week, President Obama got a $59 billion emergency spending bill that he wanted. But he had to go around 102 Democrats who were trying to block it.
Now, hold that thought for a minute, because that's not the real story here. Tonight, I want to take you through the Republican side of this, because when it comes to military spending, you would expect oftentimes the GOP to take a hawkish stand, at least in the last decade or so, never wanting to be seen as saying no to the troops.
But 12 house Republicans also voted against the funding. That's important, among them, Utah's Jason Chaffetz, part of the movement among some conservatives who now want us out of Afghanistan. Now, that list includes better-known names as well.
Look at what Ann Coulter, no stranger to this program, wrote this month. She joined Michael Steele in calling the conflict Obama's war. And Ann concludes, "Judging by other recent Democratic ventures in military affairs, the war isn't likely to turn out well."
Here is another one. Commentator George Will has been beating the drum for almost a year now. Listen to what he said last September. "Afghanistan would need hundreds of thousands of coalition troops, perhaps for a decade or more. That is inconceivable." That's George Will. Those are his words.
A longtime Republican critic of the war, one who also calls it Obama's war, is Texas Congressman and former presidential candidate Ron Paul.
SANCHEZ: This is going to be making a lot of news, because it is very controversial. I don't know if you've had a chance to see the cover of "TIME" magazine. I'm going to show it to our viewers now. On this cover, there is a woman, a beautiful woman. Apparently, the Taliban took her and cut her nose and her ears off for leaving a relationship with a man who was abusing her. We have heard the stories of what the Taliban did. They don't want girls to learn. They can't go to school. They're not allowed to read books. They beat them. They punish them.
And the fear is, we leave, they start doing that again. And a lot of people would say, how can we leave them? Is that OK with you?
PAUL: Well, it's not OK, but the alternative isn't any better, because if we leave or stay, there is still going to be more killing. I think there is more killing when we stay.
And worse thing, it wasn't just the Taliban and their Sharia law. It was the husband that did it. This is so horrible and cruel. But, you know, there are so many injustices in the world. And how you correct injustice is the question.
SANCHEZ: We know now that we have spent $1 trillion between Iraq and Afghanistan. And you are starting to read suggestions now in American newspapers that what it cost to keep one soldier over there equipped for a year is tantamount to what it would take to keep 20 hospitals -- 20 schools running there for a year.
Now, you start doing the math and you say, well, so, would you be in favor of shifting the emphasis from a military emphasis to something more of a Peace Corps-type emphasis, where we send Americans in there to -- to help them?
SANCHEZ: But then, that, too, is kind of nation-building, isn't it?
PAUL: Yes, it is.
And from my philosophy and from the Constitution, I would say no. But I had a conversation today with Barbara Lee that disagrees me, but we agree on the war, stop the war and do more of the social help.
And I said the one position I have is, if you can cut the money from the war and save some money and actually cut the deficit, and you shift it to that type of activity, I would support that as a transition. I wouldn't endorse it philosophically. And I don't want to start a new program.
But, if you want to work away from the violence, it would be much better to do medical help and schools than it would be to bomb people with drones and expanding the war, like we are doing in Pakistan.
SANCHEZ: You know what I want to know from you? Here's what I want to know. I want to know how many Republicans come up and whisper to you their support for this position that you have long taken on the war, both Afghanistan and Iraq, that they can't say publicly?
PAUL: Well, I am sworn to secrecy. I am not allowed to say.
SANCHEZ: He went on to say, in fact, that several of them do come up to him and whisper in his ear the very thing that oftentimes they don't feel comfortable enough voting for or saying publicly about the war in Afghanistan.
Well, tonight, the man I put on the list that you don't want to be on last night is here to defend himself. The question is, how do you defend yourself when you claim to be a man of God and you're calling for people to burn the Koran on September 11? That's what he is doing. All right, there you see him right there. But at least he has got the guts to come on this show and face off.
So, we will do that in just a moment.
Also, Ellen DeGeneres quits "American Idol." We have the details on why. Why? That's on the LIST. Stay right there.
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
Want to take you back to my home state now, Gainesville, Florida, known for its heated protests against homosexuals and abortion. Well, it is now turning its attention to Muslims. That's right. On the anniversary of the September 11 attacks in our country, the Dove World Outreach Center is hosting what they're calling International Burn a Koran Day.
Church members -- yes, church members, Christians -- plan to set fire to copies of another faith's most sacred book. The pastor of this church, he's name is Terry Jones. He believes that Islam is of the devil. In fact, it is the name of his book. And Pastor Jones joins me now.
Pastor, thanks so much for being with us. Do you know how many Muslims there are in the world?
TERRY JONES, DOVE WORLD OUTREACH: I think there's about 1.5 billion.
SANCHEZ: Yes, yes. So, I guess I ask you that question because that's a very big number. Why would you want to do this to 1.5 billion people as you say in the world by burning their most sacred book? That's crazy.
JONES: well, for one thing, for us the book is not sacred.
SANCHEZ: But it is for them. But it is for them.
JONES: By doing this action. But not to us.
SANCHEZ: So, if I don't -- I don't mean to interrupt. But you just told me something that's ridiculous. To you it's not sacred. How about it's sacred to them? That's like saying I'm going to burn down your house because I don't like your house. It's not my place to burn down your house.
JONES: Well, we're not burning down a house. And what we are also doing by the burning of the Koran on 9/11, we're saying stop. We're saying stop to Islam. Stop to Islamic law. Stop to brutality.
We have nothing against Muslims. They are welcome in our country. They are welcome to worship. We have freedom of worship. We have freedom of speech. They are welcome. What is not welcome, what we are saying with the burning of the Koran --
SANCHEZ: So how would you --
JONES: -- what is not welcome is Islamic law.
SANCHEZ: How would you --
JONES: The brutality of Islamic law. That is what's not welcome.
SANCHEZ: How would you feel if a Muslim said to you what you just said to them, I have no problem with you, Mr. Christian, you're welcome in my country but I'm burning your bible? How would you feel?
JONES: I would not like it. But it's their right. We live in America.
SANCHEZ: Well, they live in America --
JONES: We're making a statement. It is time to stand up and speak out on what we believe in. We believe that Islam is of the devil. It is causing billions of people to go to hell.
SANCHEZ: You believe that.
JONES: It is a deceptive religion.
SANCHEZ: You believe that.
JONES: It is a violent religion.
SANCHEZ: You believe that.
JONES: That is proven, many, many times.
SANCHEZ: No, because --
JONES: It is time that churches, politicians stand up and speak the truth.
SANCHEZ: There are moderate Muslims, sir, who live in this country who love America probably every bit as much as you say you do. Some of them died on September 11th.
JONES: That is exactly right. There is moderate -- there is moderate Muslims.
SANCHEZ: Why are you insulting them?
JONES: There are moderate Muslims, but there is no such thing as a moderate Islam. I do not understand why people defend Islam. All you have to do is just look in dominated, in Islam-dominated countries and you will see the oppression.
SANCHEZ: That's fine.
JONES: Why defend it? Why do we defend oppression? Why do we defend a country like Saudi Arabia who not even allow women to have a driver's license? And people defend Islam.
SANCHEZ: Why would you want to act in a way that's very much like what they do? Why would you sound or do something as hateful as to burn their most -- their most sacred book?
JONES: Because we believe the times call for it. It calls for radical times. If we do not stand up, if we do not do something, if we do not, this church and other churches do not call people to stand up, you know what's going to happen to us?
JONES: We're going to end up like Europe. Look at England. Look at Germany. Look at Holland. We're going to end up like that because Muslims.
SANCHEZ: So burning their book while doing something --
JONES: The true Muslim is a believer in the Koran. The Koran calls for the killing of unbelievers.
SANCHEZ: So burning --
JONES: A true Muslim believes in Sharia law. Sharia law OKs honor killings.
SANCHEZ: Well, the problem is --
JONES: Is that really a religion we want here in America?
SANCHEZ: The problem is, sir, as being a devotee of the prince of peace just as you are, you do Christians in this country a disservice by sounding as hateful as you do and saying that you're going to perform hateful acts as you say you are for people who may not necessarily believe the things that you say they do. We'll leave it at that. My thanks to you, Terry Jones for coming on.
This next story is something that we first told you about last night. And it's more important than a lot of people realize. It's a movement that could change the way we elect our president. It's a radical change, not just some technicality. We're going to break it all down for you in just a little bit.
But later, Brooke Baldwin is here. There is breaking news, considering someone -- well, concerning someone, I should say, who is daily in the news. Ellen DeGeneres. What's going on with Ellen DeGeneres. Brand new information just coming into us. A major announcement, and Brooke has it. Stay right there. We'll be right back.
SANCHEZ: Right here for the last couple days. Last night, we told you about a movement that would revolutionize the way that we pick our president in the United States. This is important. This affects everybody, right?
This could be a big deal. And you need to know about this. Just this week, Massachusetts signed on as well, joining five other states and passing legislation to give its electoral college votes to the presidential candidate who earns the most votes nationwide. Right. The popular vote as we often call it, right.
Well, this throws all the conventional wisdom and the electoral maps and all the campaign strategies and where candidates are going to go and spend their money and campaign and give speeches right out the window. Right? And there's a lot of folks out there, especially on the right who are incensed about this. They don't like it one bit. So to make it make sense, I want to take it to one of our best correspondents at explaining these things. Here now, Tom Foreman, to take us through what is for most people a very complex system.
Tom, it's yours.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rick, I'll tell you something. This is complex for the parties too, even if they don't know it. Take a look at this.
Five states so far, Washington and Hawaii and Illinois and New Jersey and Maryland have already taken steps to do an end-run around the electoral college, saying they will give all of their state's electoral votes to the candidate who wins the popular vote nationwide. Now, beyond that, we have Massachusetts, possibly coming on board if the governor signs this thing. And a fistful of other states that have either considered this or possibly still heading that way.
And it would work like this. If, for example, you had Massachusetts over here, which is pretty solidly blue. And they voted for a Democrat. But more voters nationwide wanted a Republican candidate. Under this rule, what would happen is Massachusetts would then give its 12 electoral votes to the GOP candidate to make sure the Republican who won the popular vote also won the election. These laws are written so that no state will do this unless enough others go along to make it effective. But this is aimed at heading off problems like the one we saw in 2000, when Al Gore won more popular votes but then he lost the election to George Bush because of the electoral vote -- Rick. SANCHEZ: You know what I'm looking at. I'm looking at this thing and I'm thinking to myself, well, a lot of the Democrats are probably thinking, and I can see why some Republicans are angry about this. Some of the Democrats are probably saying, hey, the population shift is working in our favor. So let's go with something that gives the president the popular vote because there's probably going to be more, you know, whatever, Hispanics and African-Americans and traditional Democratic voters whereas the guys on the right, the conservative side are looking, saying, hey, wait a minute. The forefathers came up with a plan. It's worked well up to now. Let's leave it alone, right?
FOREMAN: Yes, yes. You know what, Rick? I wrote my newspaper column today. And I said you know what the problem is with this plan? The unintended consequences. And I don't think either party knows what they're going to be.
Look at this. This does sound more like democracy, but it could produce some unintended results. For example, look at this. Right now, both parties pretty much know the playing field. For better or worse, they know where they're strong. They know where they're weak. They know which states they have to target and they play accordingly. Under this scenario, the whole country as you said last night, kind of becomes a purple country. You don't really know where the game is being played.
Now, why does that matter? Would that be good for everybody? Yes, maybe. But here's one possibility. Under this scenario, the person with the most money to wallpaper the nation with ads could have a huge advantage. Or maybe if we have a really close election, once each candidate cements his bases, you can end up scrambling over little pockets of voters all over the place and they could be the decisive factor. And if you don't think the people in Boston are going to be upset to find out that the people in Spokane decided the election they're going to be. Or Rick, we could wind up with lots and lots of candidates and no one able to produce a majority. And I'll tell you that produces an even bigger problem.
The biggest problem that you could possibly have here, is this, Rick. What if you have 48 percent over here and you have 47 percent over here? And in the middle you have somebody who comes out of nowhere, a talk show host.
FOREMAN: Or some celebrity, or something who at the last minute gets five percent of the vote. If you have to have a majority to win, that person could hold the whole process hostage --
FOREMAN: -- with five percent of support and then they could barter that to either side for huge concessions. I'm not saying this can't work, Rick, but there are many details to be worked out before it would work. SANCHEZ: It's like this huge -- it's like this huge wrench that you just threw right into the thought process. The unintended consequences.
FOREMAN: It may be a great idea. It may be a great idea, but we'll have to see.
SANCHEZ: We'll have to see. Well done explanation as usual. Tom Foreman. We'll be looking forward to seeing you again.
Earlier this week, CNN reported results of a poll that, by the way, did ask the question, do you support allowing immigrants to stay in the United States if they have a job and pay back taxes?
Well, the numbers were transposed in the calculation. Still, the numbers were very high as you can see there. But we transposed numbers for white, non-Hispanics and Hispanic respondents.
Here's the actual numbers, by the way. Ninety-four percent of Hispanics say yes. That makes sense. Eighty-two percent of blacks say yes. And a high 78 percent of whites also agree that if they pay their taxes, pay their back taxes, keep a job, and prove it, they should possibly be given a path to citizenship.
When we come back, Brooke's got the list of what's trending. And there's new information about Ellen DeGeneres. Brand new stuff. It just happened, right?
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Tweet just in. We're on it.
SANCHEZ: You're on it?
BALDWIN: I'm on it.
SANCHEZ: I'll look forward to it. Stay right there. Brooke is on the war path.
SANCHEZ: OK. This is the part of the show where we talk about the things that are trending. What people are talking about on the Internet. Sharing with themselves by sending each other tweets, et cetera, et cetera. You've got the president of the United States on "The View" and you got something about Snooki. And on top of that, Ellen DeGeneres has just made huge news.
BALDWIN: I know. Huge news. You love Ellen. I love Ellen. Who doesn't love Ellen?
BALDWIN: Let's go straight to the twit board and I want to show you she just tweeted minutes ago. She says, "Dim the lights. I've voted myself off 'American Idol.'"
SANCHEZ: She's quitting. BALDWIN: She's quitting. In fact, this is just a portion of her statement. Here's what she says. She says, you know, it wasn't the right fit for her. "It was a difficult decision to make, but my work schedule became more than I bargained for. I also realized" -- this is a good part -- "that this season that while I love discovering, supporting and nurturing young talent, it was hard for me to judge people and sometimes hurt their feelings." So, she's kind of a nice, warm and fuzzy judge. Who will her replacement be? Rick Sanchez?
SANCHEZ: I don't think so.
BALDWIN: Still anyone's guess.
SANCHEZ: I'm too nice also.
BALDWIN: Kidding, I'm kidding.
Number two, you mention President Obama. He made news, I say that loosely on "The View" today. Of course, you know, he talked about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. He talked about his family. He talked even about racism, Shirley Sherrod, but it was what he said about a, what was it a cast member --
BALDWIN: -- a real person, Snooki, on the "Jersey Shore" that everyone is buzzing about. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOY BEHAR, CO-HOST, "THE VIEW": Should Snooki run as mayor of Wasilla?
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I got to admit I don't know who Snooki is.
BEHAR: You don't?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: I got to admit I don't know who Snooki is.
SANCHEZ: What's a Snooki?
BALDWIN: What's a Snooki? It's not a thing, it's a person. But wait a second. We thought the president knew exactly who Snooki was.
BALDWIN: Because digging through our archives as we serious journalists do on assignments like this, we found the president at the correspondents dinner back in May, he actually referenced Snooki and a couple of other in the "Jersey Shore" and he was poking fun, the joke about provisions in the new health care bill. Here he was.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This next provision is called the Jersey Shore-up. It reads the following individuals shall be excluded from the indoor tanning tax within this bill. Snooki. JayWow (ph). The Situation. And House Minority Leader John Boehner.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: So, whether he really knew who Snooki was, they probably wrote the joke. But then some people were joking today that look, even, you know, Mr. Hip, hip, John McCain, you know who would have thunk back in '08 that it would be actually McCain who was tweeting to Snooki.
BALDWIN: -- you know, joking about the tanning tax. His daughter Meghan McCain coming out today also saying, you know what, Mr. Obama has more to do than talk about Jay-Z and his iPod. But anyway, a lot of people talking about the president on "The View."
SANCHEZ: Hey, John McCain is cool.
BALDWIN: Hey, he's -- somebody in that office is tweeting a whole lot, right?
SANCHEZ: Hip to be square.
BALDWIN: Kind of like someone we know.
SANCHEZ: Something like that. You want to meet cool? You want to meet cool?
BALDWIN: Don't I every day?
SANCHEZ: No. You want to -- well, that's the prince. You know you're nice. I want you to meet the king of cool.
BALDWIN: I'm ready, who's that?
SANCHEZ: Ladies and gentlemen.
BALDWIN: Oh, Larry King.
SANCHEZ: Ladies and gentlemen -- ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Larry King.
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Hey, baby, who loves you? Hey.
BALDWIN: Hey, baby.
KING: OK, both of you pay attention.
SANCHEZ: We're doing that, Mr. King. KING: OK. One of your favorite people, Sanchez, Arizona Governor Jan Brewer will join us with a message for the federal government. And she'll tell us about her state's appeal of the ruling that blocks some key points of the immigration law from taking effect. And Laura Ingraham has something to say about it all too. She's here as well.
So, Rick, you watch. As for your partner there, you can do anything you like.
BALDWIN: Oh. Larry King.
SANCHEZ: Go, Brooke.
KING: So ruled by the king of cool. Dismissed.
SANCHEZ: Hey, did you and -- did you and Bill Maher ever go see that ventriloquist act that I heard you guys talking about that night that had you bawling on the couch?
KING: I went. He's the greatest. He's at the -- he's at the Mirage Hotel in Vegas. He is the greatest ventriloquist -- you cannot -- he's unbelievable. That's what he is. He's unbelievable. What are you laughing at? That's an hour and a half.
SANCHEZ: From the 1920s. I mean, what's a ventriloquist?
KING: Twenty-six different puppets.
Ventriloquist with 26 different puppets. You know --
KING: Hey, Sanchez.
KING: Sanchez, broaden your horizons.
KING: Take yourself, go to Vegas.
BALDWIN: We're helping him do that.
KING: Go to see him.
BALDWIN: We're helping him.
SANCHEZ: I'll work on it. I'll work on it, Larry. Love you like a brother. We'll catch up again tomorrow.
You think a congressman -- ventriloquist? You think a congressman with 40 years of experience would know right from wrong. You would think so. But in a minute, we're going to tell you why he's landing on "The List U Don't Want 2 Be On." Stay right there. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right. You'd think an elected official who has spent decades in Congress would know the rules by now. What's right, what's wrong. But apparently that isn't the case and it's landing one politician on a little thing that we do here every night for you that many of you say you like. It's called "The List U Don't Want 2 Be On."
Yes, it's New York Congressman Charlie Rangel, Democrat, 40 years on the field. But now this Democrat is in serious danger of losing his job. The House Ethics Committee slapped him with 13 violations today. Among other things, he's accused of not telling the truth about his income and in one case not paying his taxes.
Now, keep in mind this is one of the most powerful Democrats in Congress. Just a few months ago, he was chairman of the committee that makes decisions on taxes, not to mention social security and Medicare. The congressman stepped down from that position. Why? Because he went on trips to the Caribbean using corporate money. You can't do that, Charlie. And now, four Republicans and four Democrats will decide his fate. Listen to how he described his mood today. This is very telling. It's the day when the charges were first made public.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CHARLES RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: Sixty years ago, I survived a Chinese attack in North Korea. And as a result, I wrote a book having survived that, that I haven't had a bad day since. Today, I have to reassess that statement. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: We are told that Congressman Rangel has the chance to kind cut a deal and avoid a trial, but that hasn't happened. He says he is innocent.
And here's the kicker. A trial wouldn't come until at least September. That's, of course, when Democrats and Republicans will be gearing up for the midterm elections. But here's what's really at stake. The people who represent us are spending valuable time on the questionable behaviors of one of their own while our troops fight wars. Not to mention all the other problems we're dealing with in this country. This is while millions of people as well are looking for jobs. And because Congressman Charlie Rangel is the reason for that, he today lands himself on "The List U Don't Want 2 Be On."
Something really weird just happened in Paris. That's what it looks like and you'll hear the description of the guy who just sent it to us. We'll be right back.
SANCHEZ: Here's the last list, the list of the best pictures of the day. We call this "fotos." UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ah, dios mio.
SANCHEZ: Did you see this anchor in Russia who forgot that important rule of thumb. Yes, he's telling the correspondent, we're number one.
Well, not really. The camera stayed on him just a little too long in this case.
Here's another one. I want to take you now from Russia to something that just happened. Sacre Bleu. An amazing iReport sent to us just a little while ago.
This guy sitting there, right? Next to this river when all of a sudden, the Seine. Not far from the Eiffel Tower, a bus just goes right into the river. Really weird. Police say no one was on board and the cause of the mess is still unknown, but it's not exactly the romantic trip down the river I always imagine taking.
And that is "fotos." Little music there, huh?
Larry King joins us now with "LARRY KING LIVE." I'll see you next.