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Piers Morgan Interviews Romney; Olympic Torch Arrives in London; Syria's Largest City on the Brink; Wall Street Flip Flop On Big Banks; The Jackson Family Drama; The Jackson Family Drama; AIDS Survivor Offers Support; Obama Meets With Cabinet; "How Guns Won"; Sandusky Voice Mails Released
Aired July 26, 2012 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Fredricka, thank you so much.
Hello to all of you. I'm Brooke Baldwin.
When I tell you we have a big show for you, we have a big show for you today.
I want to start, though, right after that here, with this huge development in the case involving Jerry Sandusky. Folks, we have never heard from that boy who Sandusky molested in the Penn State locker room, in the showers, until now. We are today getting word victim number two has come forward. He has lawyered up. He has released voice mails apparently from Sandusky himself. So you know we have folks cutting that sound right now and we'll bring that to you here in just a moment. So, stick around for that.
But I do want to talk London, and Mitt Romney specifically. He is just across the pond. And it's a good thing the British do not vote in our elections. Good for Romney, that is. Romney's audition as an international statesman is quite honestly off to a rocky start for what he said about the Olympics there. On the eve of the big, global event, London awoke to Romney second-guessing its preparation. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, it's hard to know just how well it will turn out. There are a few things that were disconcerting. The stories about the private security firm not having enough people. The supposed strike of the immigration and customs officials. That, obviously, is not something which is encouraging.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Disconcerting, he says. Now, Romney's words got back to British Prime Minister David Cameron, who he did meet with this morning. And Cameron said his country is good at welcoming people and that he would make that point to Mitt Romney. Here is Mitt Romney afterwards.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ROMNEY: My experience as an Olympic organizer is that there are always a few very small things that end up going not quite right in the first day or so. Those get ironed out. And then when the games themselves begin and the athletes take over, all the mistakes of the organizing committee, and I made a few, all of those are overwhelmed by the many things that the athletes carry out that capture the spirit of the games.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Well, what Mitt Romney said to me is that he thought it looked extremely well organized, the venues looked good, the country is well prepared. He ran a successful Olympic games in his own country. And I think he's very much looking forward to going to see some of the events here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Now, Cameron said he took Romney's words as a vote of confidence. So the dust, perhaps, had settled on this one. Piers Morgan live for me in London.
Piers Morgan, nice to see you. Blue skies. Much better than the last time you and I were plopped together at Buckingham Palace for the jubilee.
You know, I know you just wrapped a pretty lengthy interview with Mitt Romney and also his wife, Ann, and we're going to play some of that in just a moment here. But I just have to ask you, first, we played the sound from Mitt Romney earlier. You know, I believe the word he used describing the Olympics and the preparation, or lack thereof, in terms of security is disconcerted. I'm just curious, how are the Brits feeling today, you know, over those comments?
PIERS MORGAN, HOST, CNN's "PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT": I thought he was absolutely right, wasn't he? I mean it's no secret over here that for the last three weeks the security around the Olympics has been a shambles. The outside firm they got in to run it has been all over the place. They didn't have enough people. And the army had to be drafted in. So Mitt Romney was only saying exactly what's been happening.
And he's run an Olympics. So I thought he was perfectly entitled to be critical. Clearly, he had to slightly change his rhetoric after the Brits pointed out, hang on a second, old boy, you know, you've got to talk us up a bit. But I thought it was a bit of a fuss about nothing. I mean, they have had some issues here, especially about security, and he was just speaking the truth, which sometimes can be rather unpalatable.
BALDWIN: OK. Let's pivot to your interview, Piers. I know you talked to Mitt Romney about gun control, specifically. A huge topic, of course, post Aurora, Colorado. Let's just take a listen to part of that interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: President Obama, last night in a speech, made a big speech which looked on the face of it, and you're (ph) getting credit for this, looked like he was moving to change things. But actually when you study the detail, hard to find a specific, we should change this law. If he called you up and said, look, we need to get together in the wake of this, as I say, the worst-ever shooting, we need to get together, do a compromised deal that just makes it more difficult for people like this to evade the system, would you at least, in principle, be happy to have that conversation?
ROMNEY: Piers, I don't support new gun laws in our country. We have a lot of gun laws now. We have background checks and other restrictions on gun ownership in our country. But as you say, we have 300 million guns in America. We have a Second Amendment that protects the right of people to bear arms. I support that.
I think that the effort to continue to look for some law to somehow make violence go away is missing the point. The real point has to relate to individuals that are deranged and distressed and to find them, to help them, and to keep them from carrying out terrible acts.
Timothy McVeigh. How many people did he kill? With fertilizer? With a -- with products that can be purchased legally anywhere in the world? He was able to carry out vast mayhem. Somehow thinking that laws against the instruments of violence will make laws go away I think is misguided.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Misguided. Tell me a little bit more about that exchange. And also, just for our viewers, I was reading this article in "Time" magazine. We're going to be talking to the author of this piece where, I don't think a lot of people realize, we know that assault weapons ban, it lapsed. It wasn't, you know, re-upped in Congress in 2004. But it was Mitt Romney, as governor of Massachusetts, who signed that into legislation on a state level. So why not nationally?
MORGAN: Well, that's the point that I made to him and others have made to him.
MORGAN: I mean he doubled -- he doubled down very firmly. He does not want to see any change to gun laws whatsoever, despite what happened in Aurora. I felt that President Obama, last night, was opening the door, publicly, to having at least a conversation with the Republicans about this, to try and work through some consensus about what would be sensible. I mean, to me, I said to him, look, when I say this as a Brit in America, a lot of Americans say, why don't you go back home and say it there.
Well, I'm here. I'm in Britain. I said to him, given that I'm in my own country, where we have strict gun control laws, and, guess what, there aren't many guns on the streets, and we have about 50 murders from guns a year. America has between 8,000 and 12,000 murders from guns a year and that's because you have nearly as many guns as you have people.
Now, I don't want to compromise the Second Amendment or tell Americans how to live their lives or to go against the Constitution saying you have a right to bear arms, but I said to Mitt Romney, who's going to stop the next 24-year-old kid who's disturbed, but has no mental health record, no criminal record, so there'll be no flags about him at all, going in and buying an assault weapon, then buying a drum of 100 bullets that could be fired all within a minute.
BALDWIN: Right, it's ammunition as well.
MORGAN: Who will stop them because the law currently won't do that.
MORGAN: He doesn't want to -- he doesn't want to change anything.
BALDWIN: Give me one more nugget, Piers, out of this interview and then we'll talk about when it airs.
MORGAN: I thought the most emotional bit, actually, having Ann Romney there. I also had a private conversation with her. Just behind me over here is the equestrian center for the Olympics. And she has this horse, which she has co-owned for a number of years, which is competing in the dressage section of the Olympics and has a reasonable chance. But the really poignant thing is Ann Romney, in the late '90s, was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and she began to ride again. She was desperate. She could barely walk. She had lost all her energy. She felt that she was dying. And she said she got back on a horse and it exhilarated her again. It made her feel alive again. She believes it saved her life, riding again. And to have now this horse here competing in the Olympics, and the Olympics being so special to the Romneys because of the Salt Lake Olympics that Mitt Romney helped turn around, she got very emotional talking about that. And Mitt Romney got emotional talking to his wife in front of me about, you know, the fact that he felt for a while that he may lose her.
BALDWIN: We will watch for the emotion and also the politics of the conversation tonight. Piers Morgan live back home in London.
Piers, good to see you, sir. Thank you very much.
And don't forget to catch the big interview tonight, "Piers Morgan Tonight," 9:00 p.m. Eastern, both, as he mentioned, Mitt and Ann Romney, right here on CNN.
And the torch has arrived in London. They ran it past the city's famous landmarks today. And suddenly London is juiced up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lovely to see everybody here. You know, just brilliant. Just brilliant.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We really wanted to see the torch. It's like a once in a lifetime opportunity. So we wanted to get here early and just show our support.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And was it worth it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very much so. We really enjoyed it. The atmosphere, the fun, the people, everything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: CNN's Zain Verjee live in London.
And, Zain, I learned very, very quickly what a British summer can entail. But it looks like --
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You did.
BALDWIN: It looks, though, like blue skies today in London there. Hopefully that's a good omen for you.
VERJEE: I hope it's a good omen. I mean, you know, you've got different tribal dances of different countries all across London doing rain dances and just trying to make sure that that doesn't happen here and the weather holds up like this. I myself have been doing a little African tribal dance here just to make sure we get as good a weather as this. It kind of goes like this. But that's (INAUDIBLE).
BALDWIN: Wow, Zain!
VERJEE: But I don't know -- I don't know if the weather is going to hold up. But, you know, the opening ceremonies are tomorrow. There's a little chance of showers. The fireworks could get totally soaked. But who knows? The games are here.
And as you were describing, the torch has been going through the major landmarks in central London. It went through Big Ben, the Millennium Bridge, Buckingham Palace, and there we saw the royals also having a little bit of fun. Kate and William having a go at the torch there as well.
BALDWIN: On the royals, let's have a little fun here. Because it's a good thing for your country that Prince Harry is not your point guard. Let's roll the video. Because we caught him shooting hoops today. He is toeing the foul line. And watch this. Watch with me. Oh, not so pretty.
BALDWIN: He's a good sport. He's a good sport, right?
VERJEE: He's a great sport. And, let's face it, no matter what he does, he's going to look good doing it, all right, and he's going to get a lot of attention because he's there. But it's not about winning or being so fabulous all the time, you know? It's also about the spirit of the games and the athletes. And so it is for the royals as well.
Earlier on, Kate and William also were at a school and they played a little bit of soccer/football as we say here in London, with a group of kids too. So they are really getting into it, Brooke. I don't know why you're not here along with the 3.5 million people coming from around the world to enjoy London. You know, everyone's really getting into the Olympic spirit. There are a lot of great parties. You would have loved it. Maybe next time, four years from now. But London is ready.
BALDWIN: Maybe next time. Enjoy it for me. See you in Rio.
Zain Verjee, thank you so much, for me live in London.
As we mentioned at the top of the show, a huge hour of news. A lot unfolding, including this.
One of the godfathers of too big to fail says break up the banks. And I'm about to talk to one of the bailout watchdogs who says those banks, along with D.C., ripped off Americans.
I'm Brooke Baldwin. The news is now.
CNN gets rare access inside Syria's civil war. Rebels, the regime, gearing up for battle.
Plus, as we learn the suspected Colorado shooter may have sent a warning. "Time" magazine declares the NRA and guns have won. We'll ask why.
And what the heck is going on with the Jacksons? The woman at the center of it all speaks out.
BALDWIN: In Syria today, the government sped more troops to the country's largest city, the commercial hub here of the country, Aleppo. But a full-fledged battle with Syrian rebels has not yet begun in earnest. Some reports suggest that the government's having some problems marshaling forces to the battle. Hala Gorani of CNN International, back with me together -- back at the Syria map. And we're talking specifically here about the city of Aleppo.
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL: Yes.
BALDWIN: You're very familiar. You have sources. But certainly we have to presume that the regime is sending, you know, their own forces as soon as possible.
GORANI: Right. We've heard from several sources that the regime is pulling troops from the northern part of the country and concentrating them in Aleppo, because rebels have made some gains. They're able, right now, to hold some territory. But the Syrian regime is not going to want to allow these rebel forces to hold the ground that they've gained.
And it's a very asymmetric battle, Brooke. You have a bunch of rebels with AK-47s. I spoke to one reporter, Luke Harding of "The Guardian," who says some of them are running out of ammunition. They have knives on their belts, you know, because that's what they say they can fight with. This is all they have.
BALDWIN: Because we've pointed out before, this is, you know, capital city of Damascus. These different circles. This represents different neighborhoods where there have been this fighting. So far the Syrian regime has been able to quell whatever revolts have popped up there.
But back to Aleppo, what does it look like right now? Empty streets? Lawlessness?
GORANI: Another one of my sources from inside -- and not lawlessness, but empty streets, yes.
GORANI: From inside. From the center of Aleppo, a neighborhood called Jemili (ph), told me, look, it's a little bit calmer in the streets today in the sense that there's no street fighting. But people are hunkered down. They're waiting for this assault that they're expecting from the regime army against the rebels.
And also you have to understand something about Aleppo that's slightly different from other areas where there's been fighting. This is a city that has a very complex relationship with the revolution. Twenty percent of this city, at the very least, is Christian. Christians are very much in their majority in support of the regime against the rebels. They fear an Islamist takeover.
GORANI: This is not a city that in its ethnic and confessional competition is similar to Damascus. It's very different.
BALDWIN: Interesting. You mentioned the troops heading toward Aleppo.
BALDWIN: Do we have any idea when they'll arrive?
GORANI: No, we don't. But we are hearing from some sources that the anticipation -- but, of course, in these cases, it's always good to be cautious. The anticipation is for tomorrow or Saturday.
But we have to remember the people who are suffering the most. And those are the civilians. The civilians, and in large part, in this particular conflict, children as we've seen and we've shown our viewers day in and day out. It's absolutely heartbreaking that those who have not chosen to fight in this battle are suffering the most from it.
BALDWIN: We'll talk tomorrow and we'll see what happens.
GORANI: All right.
BALDWIN: Hala Gorani, thank you very much.
He built one of the biggest banks in this country, saying bigger is better. Now Citigroup's former CEO says big banks need to be broken up? This is a major change of heart, but is it too radical?
BALDWIN: Here is some good news if you are looking to buy a home. Mortgage rates are now at record lows. Take a look at this, 3.49 percent. That is the average for a 30-year fixed rate mortgage. And the average for a 15-year is down to 2.8 percent.
A sign today that the big, make that mega-banks are losing friends. A guy who credited -- who really is credited with supersizing the banks, is now in the first place now calling for breaking them up. CNN business correspondent Christine Roman reports this flip-flop is coming from the former CEO of, drum roll, Citigroup.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, the godfather of big, huge banks now says maybe they are too big. It's the ultimate Wall Street flip-flop. Sandy Weill, former chairman of Citigroup, spent years and millions of lobbying dollars pushing Congress to let banks get bigger. Congress and President Clinton agreed and they tore down Depression-era banking protections. Critics say deposit-taking banks were then allowed to make risky bets and chase trading profits and that led to the financial (INAUDIBLE). Sandy Weill tells CNBC this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANFORD "SANDY" WEILL, FORMER CEO, CITIGROUP: I think what we should probably do is go and split up investment banking from banking and have banks do something that's not going to risk the taxpayer dollars, that's not going to be too big to fail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROMANS: Not only are they too big to fail, some say they're too big to make money for their shareholders. Banking stocks are down nearly 60 percent over the past five years, compared to the S&P 500, which is down about 9 percent over the same period. Former Morgan Stanley Chairman and CEO Phil Purcell wrote an op-ed published in "The Wall Street Journal" last month saying, quote, "there is one benefit of breakups that hasn't gotten much publicity. Shareholders would get greater value from their investments. Breaking these companies into separate businesses would double to triple the shareholder value of each institution."
Maybe if public outcry doesn't slim down the banks, shareholder outcry will.
BALDWIN: Christine Romans. Thanks, Christine.
And, oh, my goodness, the Jackson family feud is -- it's just outrageous. Matriarch and guardian Katherine Jackson travels nine hours by car to go home where someone has told the cook, the nanny, the housekeepers to go. I'm about to speak with someone who knows this family very, very well. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BALDWIN: The Jacksons, their family drama turning into one big reality show that I know a lot of you cannot turn away from. It all surrounds Michael Jackson's mother, Katherine. Allow me to reintroduce you to the family. First up you have father Joe and mother Katherine. And then you have eight remaining kids. From Rebbie, the oldest, to Janet, the youngest. However, none of those eight was in Michael Jackson's will. And many believe that is precisely what this whole fuss has really been about.
To make matters worse, 82-year-old Katherine Jackson apparently decided she wanted to get away from the bickering for just a couple of days, get some rest, but all hell broke loose about where she was. Paris, Michael Jackson's daughter, tweets expressing concerns for her grandmother and then it has it really out with her aunt, Janet. Other family members demand to know where Katherine is. Absolute madness.
Well, in today's episode here, the drama heats up. Katherine Jackson, she's back home. She says she wasn't kidnapped. Here she was.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATHERINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON'S MOTHER: There are rumors going around about me that I've been kidnapped and held against my will. I'm here today to let everyone know that I'm fine and I'm here with my children and my children would never do a thing like that, holding me against my will. It's very stupid for people to think that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Well, people did think that. Her granddaughter, Paris, an L.A. county judge, even her grandson, T.J., who now has temporary custody of Prince, Paris and Blanket.
Let me bring in someone who knows this family very, very well. Our CNN entertainment correspondent Alan Duke, who, by the way, broke this story originally for us.
And so, Alan, you met -- you say Katherine met with her lawyers this morning. Do we know what that conversation entailed?
ALAN DUKE, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, Katherine is probably right now meeting with her lawyers. And -- or at least they're going to try to meet with her. If that goes off. They have to actually meet with her before they can file a petition to have custody restored to her. It was temporarily suspended yesterday. Given to her grandson T.J. Jackson. But the lawyer has to be able to attest before the judge that he met with her and that she's ready to resume guardianship.
And so that meeting, I'm also expecting, would include the lawyers telling her all of the things that were going on in the media and at home and around that she may not know about, because she was isolated at this spa. This spa that doesn't allow phones in. And that's why they said she wasn't able to call for 10 days. The kids didn't even know where she was at. Didn't know she was at the spa. That was one of the big problems. The lawyer calls it a really bad miscommunication. And, of course --
DUKE: Yes, that's what it was. That -- you know, this is a lawyer who has to not say anything bad about her children because, of course, he works for Katherine Jackson and she never says anything bad about her children, no matter what.
BALDWIN: Let me ask you, Alan, about Prince. I know you've spent some time with Prince. You have seen his relationship play out with a couple of his uncles. Tell me a little bit about what you've seen with your own eyes and whose side are they on?
DUKE: Well, these photos you're seeing right here were a few months ago when I had some time with Prince and his uncles, Marlon, Jackie, and Tito. It was at an event where it was a very small event where he was there showing his support for an endorsement that they were doing.
And I got to talk to him a little bit on and off the record, and I can tell you that he really enjoys being with those three right there. Those three are not involved in this squabble.
In fact, you've seen them speak out against what was going on, their mother not communicating with Prince and Paris. So here you see a very relaxed. He's a young man who is mature beyond his age. He tweeted this morning, do we want to look at that, a very dramatic tweet.
DUKE: -- "as I'm sure everyone is well aware of the events that have been going on, I have been holding off on backing up my sister and her tweets avidly, because I was waiting for more time, the time to reveal my side.
As long as I can remember, my dad had repeatedly warned me of certain people and their ways. Although I am happy my grandma was returned, after speaking with her, I realize how misguided and how badly she was lied to. I'm really angry and hurt."
That's what he tweeted this morning, probably as he was getting ready to go to school.
BALDWIN: Isn't it just amazing, the things now people are putting out there in the public sphere on Twitter? You also have Paris, right? She was tweeting. In fact, what was it, last Wednesday, Alan, you knew last Wednesday that she wanted to call the FBI over all of this.
DUKE: Yes. I was told that she was very upset, because after three or four days from not hearing from her grandmother unexplainably, she called Janet Jackson up and said, please let me talk to her, and they got into an argument over it.
And of course, a few days later on Monday afternoon, you've seen the security cam video of a confrontation between Janet and Paris so a real split there. But Paris has led the way in this family.
She's got more than a half a million Twitter followers. You never want to go against a 14-year-old girl who's fighting for her grandmother and has half a million Twitter followers. She has ruled in this, if you want to call it a PR battle, but really a family feud, it seems Paris Jackson is the leader.
BALDWIN: She seemed legitimately worried. At least we now know Katherine Jackson is fine. Alan Duke, thank you so much for your reporting for us in Los Angeles. We appreciate it.
And as we learned, the suspected Colorado shooter may have sent a warning. "Time" magazine declares the NRA and guns have won. We're going to ask why.
Plus, a puppeteer entertaining children had horrible thoughts about these little ones and described them in detail online and that's when the feds moved in.
BALDWIN: The International AIDS Conference is meeting in Washington, D.C., this week, inside the U.S. for the first time in decades. 22 years, in fact. So in our "Human Factor" today, we're profiling an AIDS survivor.
Patricia Nalls lost her husband, lost her child to AIDS, and was diagnosed with it herself at age 29. She miraculously survived and is now driven to help other women with the decease. And our Dr. Sanjay Gupta tells her story.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: This is the AIDS quilt panel Patricia Nalls helped make in honor of her husband, Lenny, and 3-year-old daughter, Tiffany.
For the 55-year-old mother of two, it was bittersweet. Her husband was an IV drug user who had been clean for years. He died of AIDS in 1987.
Six months later, their daughter, Tiffany, succumbed to the disease. Nalls knew she had AIDS shortly after her husband was diagnosed. She was just 29 years old.
PATRICIA NALLS, FOUNDER, "THE WOMEN'S COLLECTIVE": I was very sick when I was diagnosed. I was 80 pounds. I had no t-cells and I was told that I had less than two years.
GUPTA: She was devastated.
NALLS: The first thing I thought about are my children. I'd bought my plot. I bought -- put everything in place for death.
GUPTA: Nalls thought she was the only woman with HIV. She found very little support for women seeking help. When her doctor assured her she wasn't alone, she put up a flyer in her office hoping to connect with others who were affected.
NALLS: And I just started a support group in my home. And in the support group, we came together, we cried, we prepared for death.
GUPTA: But Nalls didn't die, because the first AIDS drug, ADT, became available, and once on the drug, she started getting better. That connection grew to what is now "The Women's Collective."
It's an AIDS service organization that serves more than 300 HIV positive women in the Washington metropolitan area. Pat is the founder and executive director.
NALLS: I feel good about what I've created, to help women who -- with things that I didn't have in place when I needed it.
GUPTA: And now 25 years later, this new AIDS panel honors her husband and her child. Pat says making it what cathartic.
NALLS: It's great to have them added to the history of this epidemic.
GUPTA: Her two other two children are now 29 and 32. They are both HIV negative and Pat recently passed one more milestone she didn't think she'd make. She became a grandmother. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.
BALDWIN: We have just turned around some tape I want to play for you in just a moment. President Obama is meeting with his cabinet today. The last time he did this was in fact the end of January, and he really talked about the economy and also talking about his Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton. Here he was.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: For me to bring my cabinet together, to thank them for the extraordinary work they're doing on a whole range of fronts. You've got Tom Vilsack working very hard to make sure that farmers and ranchers are getting help at a time of devastating drought.
You have Secretary Clinton, who has been logging more miles than any secretary of state in history, dealing with a whole rake of problems and opportunities around the globe. Obviously, we're going to be focusing a lot on the situation in Syria and what we can do there to make sure that we reduce the bloodshed.
But a whole range of cabinet members and obviously my administration are focusing on our economy. And how do we make sure this is the economy in which people work hard, who act responsibly can get ahead? This is a particular challenge right now. We're seeing some of the weaknesses in Europe.
And it is a perfect time for us to focus on what are steps we can take now, not later, not a year from now, but right now, to strengthen the middle class and put more people back to work and provide business greater certainty?
And yesterday, the Senate voted to ensure that 98 percent of Americans don't see their taxes go up next year. That 97 percent of small businesses don't see their taxes go up next year. It was the right thing to do.
It will provide certainty and security to families who are already feeling pinched, because of the economy. It will be good for the economy as a whole. And now, the only thing that is going to prevent the vast majority of Americans from not seeing a tax increase next year is if the House doesn't act.
We need 218 votes in the House of Representatives, 218 votes in the House of Representatives to make sure that 98 percent of Americans don't see their taxes go up next year.
And so, one of the things that I'm going to be doing, my cabinet members are going to be doing, over the next several days, is to make sure that the American people understand that we can provide them certainty right now for next year, that their taxes will not go up.
And they will then be able to plan accordingly. Small businesses will be able to plan accordingly, knowing that we've taken a whole bunch of uncertainty out of the economy at a time when the global economy is experiencing a number of disruptions.
So, again, I would urge the House of Representatives to do the right thing and I'm going to make sure that my cabinet members amplify that message in the days to come. Thank you very much, everybody.
BALDWIN: President Obama there at the big table, flanked by his Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta. Hopefully we will get a readout of that entire cabinet meeting and we'll report on that as soon as we get it.
Meantime, it has been six days since that gunman randomly shot up that movie theatre full of just innocent people in Colorado. And the gun control debate absolutely ignited now, boiling over, in fact.
Both Mitt Romney and President Obama taking a stand. We're going to tell you what it was they said, just in the last 24 hours, and why -- see the cover of "Time" magazine? Why "Time" says guns won.
BALDWIN: Let me set the scene here, a mass shooting, many, many innocent people dead, the nation in shock and grief. Its leader urges change.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRESIDENT OBAMA: We have to examine all the facts behind this tragedy. We cannot and will not passive in the face of such violence. We should be willing to challenge old assumptions in order to lessen the prospects of such violence in the future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: That was President Obama in January of last year after a deranged gunman targeted Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, killing six people and injuring 12 others. Since then, what has happened in gun control legislation? Nothing.
I'm quoting here from the cover story of the new issue of "Time" magazine, entitled, "How Guns Won: Why Americans Have Turned Against Gun Control."
This article explains why the 1994 ban on assault weapons as part of this crime bill expired in 2004 and has stayed that way. And this man, this man, alleged shooter in Aurora, James Holmes, used an AR-15 rifle.
But plus say it's not clear if the weapon was on full automatic last Friday when 12 people were massacred in that movie theatre.
I want to go straight to "Time" magazine's deputy Washington Bureau Chief, Michael Crowley. Michael, welcome, it's good to see you. So I'm glad we're talking today because it's so timely given the president's comments and also Mitt Romney's comments of the last 24 hours.
So the president, as they point out at the top of this article, had been silent on gun control really since that massacre until he spoke in New Orleans last night not National Urban League. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRESIDENT OBAMA: I, like most Americans, believe that the second amendment guarantees an individual the right to bear arms. But I also believe that a lot of gun owners would agree that AK-47s belong in the hands of soldiers, not in the hands of criminals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Mike, what do you make of those words last night? Do you think it's more of a stronger stance than post-Tucson, but will it still lead to nothing?
MICHAEL CROWLEY, DEPUTY WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, TIME MAGAZINE: The rhetoric is maybe a little bit stronger. You know, and it's noteworthy, it's much stronger than anything he's said, you know, in the immediate wake of the shooting.
But I don't know how much farther he's going to go. Look, one point that Joe Klein makes in his excellent cover story is that the NRA essentially has won the debate about guns and the country. And that Democrats are terrified of this issue.
They learned the hard way from experiences dating back to the Clinton presidency that the NRA will exact a heavy toll, although as Joe argues, sometimes -- there's some Democrats who think that the NRA's power has been overstated and Democrats really need to test the waters again, to push gun control.
But public opinion is not really there either. So to answer your question, I don't think it will go much farther than a couple of campaign speeches for the president.
BALDWIN: Before we talk about how this fared, not just for Bill Clinton, but as we know the story with Al Gore in 2000. I do just want to play a little sound.
Let's get the other side. This is Mitt Romney. This is his take. This is what he said about this alleged gunman, James Holmes, to NBC.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, this person shouldn't have had any kind of weapons and bombs and other devices. And it was illegal for him to have many of those things in the first place, but he had them. So we can sometimes hope that just changing the law will make all bad things go away, it won't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: To be clear, Romney's staff later said, what Romney meant by weapons was the bombs, not the guns, legally speaking. Still, Michael, he does not support more gun control laws.
However, Joe Klein points out in this article that, you know, when he was the governor of Massachusetts, he actually extended that assault weapons ban in his state as law there. So what happened? I believe Joe used the word chameleon?
CROWLEY: This is, you know, an uncomfortable issue I think for Romney because it is one of several cases where he moved to the right when they developed national ambitions and he no longer had to appeal to a fairly liberal electorate in Massachusetts.
You know, but I also think it's just a tough spot for any politician, and, you know, I was struck, actually, by some other comments I heard Romney make, trying to brought it back to the issue of the economy.
Romney's default position on everything seems to be to go back and talk about the economy. What he seemed to be saying was that the country needs some spiritual healing. And one way to do that is to lift the lot of Americans.
It's almost a way of saying that more jobs will lead to less gun violence. I supposed that's one way to handle it. I'm not sure anyone right now has a good answer. You get the sense that both sides are feeling a little timid about the issue.
BALDWIN: You know, it's clear, sort of the typical Republican stance, quickly though, you bring up President Clinton. He passed the assault weapons ban in '94. Fifty four Democrats lost the following November. Al Gore campaigned in 2000.
Joe Klein says it was the most radical gun control platform in American history and we know what happened with Al Gore. My final question to you is, you know, there's this quote from conservative Joe Will in this piece that, you know, no law could have stopped someone like the suspect here.
Here's what he writes and I know a lot of Americans agree with this. Quote, "I defy you to write a gun control law that would prevent someone like this with a long time horizon and a great planning capability from getting the arms he wants. I just think that this is a mistake."
Does any of this matter, in the end? Someone's going to get there -- you know, someone with nefarious intentions are going to get their hands on ammo and guns and laws won't matter?
CROWLEY: Right, I mean, I think if somebody is truly psychotic and they're determined to hurt people and they have the ability to plan, they are going to be able to do it. You can't legislate away evil, so to speak.
You know, I think Joe's argument is, you know, that heir on the side of closing as many little loopholes as possible. So guns are a particularly easy way, quick way and cheap way of killing people.
You know, building elaborate bombs, take the movie theatre example. You know, wiring up a movie theatre with bombs, that's harder than coming through a backdoor with a gun that can spray a lot of bullets quickly.
I think Joe's argument is, you know, who are you really -- what is the real harm in tightening some of these laws. And if you can prevent some of these supposed, save some laws, err on the side of doing that.
But I think it's true that the American people generally feel like it's a pretty nuanced, complicated issue. It involves mental health, involves a lot of other things and there's not a quick fix solution. And the political rhetoric is reflecting that right now.
BALDWIN: Michael Crowley, the deputy Washington bureau chief of "Time" magazine, we appreciate you. Again, the article, the cover story here on "Time" magazine, "How Guns Won." Thank you, sir.
And I know some people don't need guns. The story behind this punch, next.
BALDWIN: A crazy fistfight breaks out at this courthouse in Jackson, Mississippi. Take a look for yourself, because it's got on tape, from the very first -- wait for it -- punch.
The man in white is the son of a man who was on trial for murder. He confronted this guy in orange who was a witness for the prosecution, and that is when this thing started. Some bystanders, you see them there, they're breaking up the fight, the police came, and both of the men were arrested.
My next guest, I consider one of the smartest men on television, and Fareed Zakaria says Republican insiders have told him something very interesting about Mitt Romney. Fareed spills the scoop. That is next.
Also just in, a huge development involving Jerry Sandusky. We are learning the boy who was molested in that Penn State locker room has just stepped forward with voice mails and you're about to hear them.
BALDWIN: This just in to us. A huge development here in the Jerry Sandusky case. Lawyers say they have finally found victim number two, the boy that former Penn State assistant coach Mike McQueary said he had spotted in the campus showers with Sandusky, back in 2001, at Penn State.
These lawyers, they released voice mail messages they say Sandusky allegedly left for this victim, victim number two, last year. And just to remind you, this audio was provided by lawyers who say they have found victim number two. Here you go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERRY SANDUSKY: I was just calling to see, I didn't know if you had any interest in going to a Penn State game this Saturday. If you could get pack to me and let me know, I would appreciate it. And when you get this message, give me a call, and I hope to talk to you later. Thanks. I love you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: The same lawyers represented several other victims in the Sandusky case. Remember, Sandusky was convicted last month of 45 counts of sexual abuse.
CNN contributor, Sara Ganim is now on the phone with me. Sarah, I just to begin with, why now? Why release the messages now? Is it to try to prove that this boy is, indeed, victim number two here?
SARA GANIM, CNN CONTRIBUTOR (via telephone): Brooke, the best I can excess is that they're ready to file a civil suit. This man did not come forward to his attorneys right now. His attorneys are telling everyone for the first time.
He actually came forward back in November, not long after Jerry Sandusky was arrested. But the way he came forward was very interesting. He went to Joe Amendola, who is Jerry Sandusky's defense attorney, and said, you know what, I think that's me that they're talking about. I was that boy in the shower, but nothing sexual happened.
Joe Amendola says he intended to call him as a witness at trial for Sandusky, but once the boy hired an attorney, Joe Amendola said, you know, I guess we're not going to be able to use him anymore.
Now, fast forward eight months and he's coming forward saying that he is the victim of abuse, that he had been abused before that Mike McQueary incident, after the Mike McQueary incident, and he intends to the sue, because he says his abuse, he believes, could have been stopped if Penn State officials had done the right thing back in 2001.
BALDWIN: OK, so you're saying possibly here we could be seeing a civil suit. We know Sandusky, as we mentioned, convicted of those 45 counts, yet to be sentenced.
Would this have an impact on that case?
GANIM: I don't foresee it having an impact on that case. He didn't take the stand and testify during that trial. It's not clear, at this point, if prosecutors are going to bring more charges against Sandusky, because when he goes to be sentenced in September, he's really looking at a de facto life sentence, because of his age and the amount of years the convictions carry.
So whether or not this becomes a new part of a new criminal case is pretty unlikely. Where this I think has the potential to impact a criminal case is actually in the cover-up part of it, whether or not he could potentially be a witness for the prosecution in the trial of those two Penn State officials who are charged with never reporting this abuse, and then are lying about it about a decade later, when they were subpoenaed before a grand jury.
BALDWIN: We will see where it goes, we will see if the civil suit if in fact that happens. Sara Ganim on the phone with me. Sara, thank you.